Still no oil pressure

adamnreeves · Post by **adamnreeves** » Sun May 31, 2009 2:47 pm

As many of you know I suffered oil pressure loss on my new RV8 4.6 block after my initial start up.

I am still trying to resolve this issue. I have now removed the timing cover, the crank driven oil pump, the pressure relieve plunger and spring. I have today re-installed and tried turning over by hand then on the starter motor. I had the rocker covers off and saw no oil flow. So I re-removed the remote filter sandwich plate and turned over again, so no oil flow from the filter head on the timing cover. I blew through the oil strainer before I re-installed the timing cover and air came out of the front of the engine. I blew through the stainer again with the timing cover on I could blow and hear air but was met with resistance which is what I'd expect.

Done all this with the plugs out. I guess I should see oil flow when just cranking on starter motor?

The only item I have not removed is the oil stainer. I couldn't get a gasket in time for the weekend so thought I'd leave it for now. This was installed with a paper gasket which was soaker over night and this was torqued to LR spec. I did have oil pressure when I initially started and a number of times afterward.

Other than the stainer, I am absolutely out of ideas what this could be.

john 215 · Post by **john 215** » Sun May 31, 2009 3:48 pm

Hi Adam,
There are a few different timing cover gkts, 3 if my ever failing memory

serves me right, have you looked to make sure the one you have dont block anything

Cant remember, but have you checked the pick up to the sump clearance you need 10mm issshhh.
Any cracks or holes in the pick up then air is easy to draw in and oil aint!
Probaly tried all the above but worth a mention

Cheers John

topcatcustom · Post by **topcatcustom** » Sun May 31, 2009 4:01 pm

Adam are you using a serp front cover or interim dissy one? Only ask as the interim still uses the short oil pick up pipe that bolts onto the underside of the block near centre main cap, and the serp one has a long pipe that bolts into the cover under the oil pump. Just making sure you dont have a mix up!

TC

adamnreeves · Post by **adamnreeves** » Sun May 31, 2009 4:43 pm

Yep its the right one, I checked that it did not block either of the two oilways.
However for some reason they sent my the water pump gasket for the older one.

Oil pick to sump clearance is 8mm, well thats the edge, the actual gauze itself is probably 10mm.

I had oil pressure initially so would be surprised if the pick-up is at fault. It was also fabricated by Peter Mulberry of Mulfab fabrications along with the sump and would be very surprised. I did examine it before I installed and remembered getting excited at the quality of the items. More likely the gasket has failed.

john 215 wrote:Hi Adam,
There are a few different timing cover gkts, 3 if my ever failing memory serves me right, have you looked to make sure the one you have dont block anything
Cant remember, but have you checked the pick up to the sump clearance you need 10mm issshhh.
Any cracks or holes in the pick up then air is easy to draw in and oil aint!
Probaly tried all the above but worth a mention
Cheers John

adamnreeves · Post by **adamnreeves** » Sun May 31, 2009 4:47 pm

Interim NAS spec one but I am not actually using a dizzy so I have plugged the hole with a CNC formed plug with o-ring. Yep my pickup is bolted directly to the block unlike GEMs/THOR that does not.

topcatproduction wrote:Adam are you using a serp front cover or interim dissy one? Only ask as the interim still uses the short oil pick up pipe that bolts onto the underside of the block near centre main cap, and the serp one has a long pipe that bolts into the cover under the oil pump. Just making sure you dont have a mix up!

TC

adamnreeves · Post by **adamnreeves** » Sun May 31, 2009 5:49 pm

Picture of my engine before installation

Picture of mulfab sump and pick-up pipe

some more porn, triple camcoated stainless steel headers, collect and y-piece. I have the rest of the system but not all camcoated!!

Yes, I have spent a lot of money on this project!

I want oil pressure and I want it now

CastleMGBV8 · Post by **CastleMGBV8** » Sun May 31, 2009 6:00 pm

Adam,

To make sure I understand what you have,

A 4.6 engine with the longer nose crank and the longer woodruff key to drive the crank driven oil pump of the interim cover.

If so check that the woodruff key is properly seated in the slot in the crank and is driving the oil pump correctly.

It was reported a while back that there had been some failures of the pump due to misalignment and breakage of the ring that fits over the nose of the crank and engages with the woodruff key and drives the oil pump.

I may be clutching at straws here but worth checking.

Kevin.

adamnreeves · Post by **adamnreeves** » Sun May 31, 2009 6:05 pm

Yes I have the long crank nose. I have the RPI spacer washer this fits over the crank after the pulley.

The internal rotor has three groves and the woodruff key fits into one of them. If the woodruff key is not aligned into one of these grooves it is not possible to push the timing cover all the way home.

Good question though.

CastleMGBV8 wrote:Adam,

To make sure I understand what you have,

A 4.6 engine with the longer nose crank and the longer woodruff key to drive the crank driven oil pump of the interim cover.

If so check that the woodruff key is properly seated in the slot in the crank and is driving the oil pump correctly.

It was reported a while back that there had been some failures of the pump due to misalignment and breakage of the ring that fits over the nose of the crank and engages with the woodruff key and drives the oil pump.

I may be clutching at straws here but worth checking.

Kevin.

HairbearTE · Post by **HairbearTE** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:24 am

Have you tried the engine with a standard filter arrangement in place? worth doing just to eliminate the remore setup as a cause.

seight · Post by **seight** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:13 am

I agree it's got to be worth doing some tests on the parts of the remote setup. I doubt a normal filter will fit on the timing cover in a Westfield though.

Would it be worth taking hoses off your remote setup and cranking the engine to see if oil comes out of them ? i.e. start with return hose from cooler to the takeoff adaptor on the timing cover if oil comes out of that then the problem's in your timing cover/engine. It there's no oil from that hose then work backwards hose by hose, topping your sump up every time.

Mike

adamnreeves · Post by **adamnreeves** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:30 am

I had already removed the oil cooler and remote filter. Yesterday I removed all the hoses. A filter will not fit on the timing cover in a westfield. So I left it off and cranked over and no oil came out of the filter head on the timing cover. As you know I had removed the timing cover and took it all apart, checked tolerances and all are fine and checked the oilways. The oil pump is brand new. The only thing I would say is the oil pump cover is a little scored.

topcatcustom · Post by **topcatcustom** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:39 am

Adam, I think what Kevin was suggesting was to make sure the oil pump cog has not slid over and PAST the woodruff key, i.e. that the shaft is not just spinning inside the oil pump. Also have you put oil in it since you took it apart ?!

TC

p.s. to make sure you aren't using a gasket that is blocking the hole why dont you blow a little air up through the oil pickup pipe and see if you get air out in the timing cover somewhere. Just a thought.

adamnreeves · Post by **adamnreeves** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:35 am

I have blew air into the pick-up to confirm this already, Can hear air in there somewhere, bit of resistance though but that is because I did put oil in

I would be surprised if the woodruff key has come of the groove in the inner rotor as both are brand new and like I say you cannot install the cover with it mis-aligned. However I will take the crank pulley off and just insert the bolt so that I can turn with a spanner to check as I am now down to checking everything and assuming nothing

topcatproduction wrote:Adam, I think what Kevin was suggesting was to make sure the oil pump cog has not slid over and PAST the woodruff key, i.e. that the shaft is not just spinning inside the oil pump. Also have you put oil in it since you took it apart ?!

TC

p.s. to make sure you aren't using a gasket that is blocking the hole why dont you blow a little air up through the oil pickup pipe and see if you get air out in the timing cover somewhere. Just a thought.

CastleMGBV8 · Post by **CastleMGBV8** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:39 am

Adam,

As TC said that was one of the points I was trying to make, ie is the rotor actually locating properly on the key and that you actually have the longer type woodruff key.

I am not as familiar with the interim covers as the earllier ones but logic suggeststhat there can only be two or three reasons why the pump is not functioning if everything is installed correctly.

From memory you said you originally had oil pressure but then lost it so something must have changed since the original start up.

So what could have changed or broken?

Is the rotor in one piece as I have seen them break, if its intact is it actually driving the pump gears?

I believe that with the interim cover that as the pump is crank driven then you cannot prime the pump as you would with the distributor driven pump as then the pump would be trying to drive the crank if I'm understanding the design correctly.

If you can't prime the pump as per the earlier front covers then you may not get enough RPM by cranking on the starter motor and you would probably have to fill the pump with vaseline for it to prime, but this would be assuming verything is in working order and doesn't explain the original
loss of oil pressure.

Sorry I can't give you a simple answer to the problem but food for thought hopefully.

Kevin.

topcatcustom · Post by **topcatcustom** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:30 am

Adam! I understand it cannot be installed wrong, we mean that the pump does not go over and past the key!