new engine, how to proceed with my budget?

Forbito · Post by **Forbito** » Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:06 am

Hello, I got a lot of doubts about my project.
I have a Land Rover 110 with an old 3.9 (the only modification is a Megajolt kit) and I want to fit a new engine. Here in Italy, I bought a used 4.6 from a 2002 Range P38. It is in good condition and has no more than 100,000 miles; I thought to fit it in my engine bay with an old V-belt front cover and Hotwire injection (plus Megajolt for ignition). However I can not be 100% sure about the conditions of the block.
In addition to this, I have a budget of about 1000 pounds more, to spend for modifications.

So, my possibilities are:
- to keep the 4.6, fitting only a new cam and timing chain.
- to buy a rebuilt long engine, using mine as exchange
- to sell the 4.6 in order to buy another one in UK (something like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rover-4-6-lit ... 4acbe430f7 )
- to sell the 4.6 and modify my 3.9, that runs perfectly but looks rather tired

Obviously the amount of british V8 experts in Italy is poor. Where to ask for advice if not here?

kiwicar · Post by **kiwicar** » Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:35 pm

Hi
the 3.9 and 4.6 can be made to give pretty much the same output BHP wise, around 210 230 bhp for reasonable money, the 4.6 will do it at lower revs and for a narrower power band, but the ultimate BHP will be within 10%, so really what do you want, if it is to be a manual gearbox and towing a big trailer then a mild cam and the 4.6 will be your best bet, if you want to run that short wheel base landrover that is on your signature on comp safari rallys on a budget then the 3.9 will be best as it will give you the widest power band and save a lot of gear changes. To do a 4.6 as you describe will cost more than the 3.9, especially if it turns out you need top hat liners, you will need to do a pressure test before you do a rebuild. what is it to be used for?
best regards
Mike

Forbito · Post by **Forbito** » Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:21 pm

Yes, top hat liners are very expensive (and the pressure test too, because it would force me to strip the whole engine). So I would prefer to avoid it.

The main use will be speed events, no towing, so I don't need lots of low torque.
Now I have an autobox, that is extremely useful in most cases, but I wish to fit a manual gearbox with the new engine, to be able to harness the engine above 3500 rpm.
The car is quite heavy, around 1900 kg

sidecar · Post by **sidecar** » Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:56 pm

Forbito wrote:because it would force me to strip the whole engine). So I would prefer to avoid it.

You state that the engine has done 100k miles and yet you don't want to fully strip it....The bearings are likely to be down to the copper, the rings will need replacing, it needs to be fully stripped if you want to end up with a good strong engine...in my humble opinion!

DaviesDJ · Post by **DaviesDJ** » Sat Nov 16, 2013 7:32 pm

I agree with sidecar- Not stripping it is foolhardy here - no point making it faster if you don't know it's condition. You can have no reassurance without this- and liner slippage is a problem in both 3.9 and 4.6. In fact all 94mm bore engines. I run a fast Landy and would go with the 4.6 with a stump puller or similar cam - i have a hotter setup but its ligter or there abouts cam- 3 angle cut and pocket port the heads

sidecar · Post by **sidecar** » Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:30 pm

I'm not sure that you could even do all that much 'tuning' with 1000 quid when at the same time trying to rebuild a 100k engine. It is possibly going to need the following right from the start:-

Rings
Honing
Big end bearings
Main bearings
Possibly cam bearings
New cam (although this does not have to be standard)
Cam followers
Timing chain and sprockets
Big end bolts (they are stretch bolts)
Head bolts (stretch bolts, although I'd go with ARP studs)
Possible crank re-grind
Gaskets

Forbito · Post by **Forbito** » Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:44 pm

Ok, I thought that my budget was too low for a rebuilt + modifications, but you are conferming that a complete stripping is necessary. But actually I made a mistake with the conversion of units. The 4.6 has 130 000 km, that are 80 000 miles.

However, I would have the other opportunity of use the 4.6 block as exchange and take a 3.5 HC short engine from V8 tuner. With the 10 bolts heads from my 4.6 I should have about 200/220 hp (V8tuner figures).
A 3.5 doesn't suffer problems of slippery liners, but should have a very different delivery of the power, probably not the best with an heavy car.

DaviesDJ · Post by **DaviesDJ** » Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:32 am

Paul is a good mate and I would hate to deprive him of business- but I would not so that. I have had many fast landies and the 3.5 in bit the way to go wih your near 2 ton 4x4 - the Landy - yours will have an lt85 - lt230 box configuration and Salisbury axle rear is a very heavy transmission and unsprung setup- it drains energy from he engine - to get 200 bhp from a 3.5 you will need a 270-280 degree cam which will rob you of low end and you may have 200bhp but it will "feel" slow under load. Rebuild the 4.6 - it will pay dividend - crack test the block (cheap) - if you are in the midlands I can sort that out for you quite cheaply - do a DIY blend of he valve throats and add a stump puller or similar cam - ( do not go for hotter as I did as I have higher flowing heads 5 liters and 400kg less car) new duplex chain, and you will be very happy with the results- with nice blended throats you could see very nice low to mid range grunt! And all that will be less then 1000. If there are any pennies left add in 30 quid for a 20 thou head skim to bring CR up a bit- I have always done this and the results are noticeable. All IMHO:-)

Forbito · Post by **Forbito** » Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:21 am

Thank you all for your replies.

Shipping a pallet from Italy to England and than the inverse would cost me about 300 £. But, probably, if my block is healthy, the total amount would still be cheaper than rebuilding the engine here (for stripping, overhaul and reassembly I received quotes that exceeded the cost of a new short engine with top hat liners...).
I could do a pressure test, in Italy, to verify the condition of the block; after the overhaul it should be easy to get an accurate quote for a rebuilding in UK.

DaviesDJ · Post by **DaviesDJ** » Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:13 pm

Can you not just send away for a set of bearings and gaskets from the UK?

ChrisJC · Post by **ChrisJC** » Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:42 pm

My advice would be to pressure test the 4.6. If it looks good, don't bother stripping it down. At 80,000 miles, the only parts that may have worn will be the camshaft, so it makes sense to change that + followers. You can then pick a cam with big torque, e.g. the RPi TorqueMax (which I ran in my Landie with an autobox on a 4.6).

I would then just run the engine and see what happens!

Chris.

sidecar · Post by **sidecar** » Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:01 pm

I don't see how you can say that, it totally depends on how the engine has been looked after and with 100k on the clock there has been plenty of time for someone to run it low on oil or not change the oil, that would soon take its toll on the bearings.

Forbito · Post by **Forbito** » Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:10 pm

Yes, the quote for stripping the block and testing it is 200 pounds, so I will proceed with it.
If I have a confirmation of the good condition of the block, I can get a quote to reassembly the engine with new main bearings, cam and timing chain.
I think that the major cost for a rebuilding here in Italy doesn't depend only on the price of spares.
An example is the quote that has been done for a 3.9 of another guy:
4,161 € + VAT for a complete rebuilding with new liners (standard); correction of cylinders, superior part of the block, heads and crankshaft, new pistons (834€!), main bearings and gaskets.

With the same price I could buy a new long engine with much better performance than original 3.9...

However, when I will have more informations about the health of my engine (I hope by the beginning of December), I will write here the diagnosis.

Thank you all guys

ChrisJC · Post by **ChrisJC** » Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:51 pm

sidecar wrote:I don't see how you can say that, it totally depends on how the engine has been looked after and with 100k on the clock there has been plenty of time for someone to run it low on oil or not change the oil, that would soon take its toll on the bearings.

Just statistics. It is almost unheard of for an engine to be worn out at 100K. If it was at 200K, I'd agree. But 100K on modern lubricants (even with neglect) is nothing.

You just don't get the sort of engine failures at 100K mileages that you used to.

Chris.

sidecar · Post by **sidecar** » Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:00 pm

ChrisJC wrote:
sidecar wrote:I don't see how you can say that, it totally depends on how the engine has been looked after and with 100k on the clock there has been plenty of time for someone to run it low on oil or not change the oil, that would soon take its toll on the bearings.
Just statistics. It is almost unheard of for an engine to be worn out at 100K. If it was at 200K, I'd agree. But 100K on modern lubricants (even with neglect) is nothing.

You just don't get the sort of engine failures at 100K mileages that you used to.

Chris.

I'm afraid I don't agree, but each to there own!