A natty brainwave?...
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- The Original Tom
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A natty brainwave?...
Nitrous = compressed gas, LPG = compressed gas.
Using an electric transfer pump to transfer some NOX into the gas tank (say about 8 litres of liquid) and then top up the rest of the tank with LPG (say 72 litres), then will the engine run more powerfully because it'll be a 10% NOX shot all the time?
Or are the densities of LPG (582 kg/sqm*), and N2O (1222.8 kg/sqm*) so different that all the N2O will sit in the bottom of the tank (i.e giving a 100% nos shot!)
Or is that just over-complicating things?...
* @ 1.013 bar @ boiling point
Using an electric transfer pump to transfer some NOX into the gas tank (say about 8 litres of liquid) and then top up the rest of the tank with LPG (say 72 litres), then will the engine run more powerfully because it'll be a 10% NOX shot all the time?
Or are the densities of LPG (582 kg/sqm*), and N2O (1222.8 kg/sqm*) so different that all the N2O will sit in the bottom of the tank (i.e giving a 100% nos shot!)
Or is that just over-complicating things?...
* @ 1.013 bar @ boiling point
Rover 3.5 V8 landy - Completely rebuilt and purring... Now awaiting a good tune!!
you have just created a massive bomb in the back of a car.
Nitrous = Oxidant
LPG = Fuel
Add both together and you get explosion with the slightest hint of an ignition source. This is why you only mix them together in the engine. Ok its not going to instantly explode but its a huge risk and defo not a good idea certainly not road or race legal.
Nitrous = Oxidant
LPG = Fuel
Add both together and you get explosion with the slightest hint of an ignition source. This is why you only mix them together in the engine. Ok its not going to instantly explode but its a huge risk and defo not a good idea certainly not road or race legal.
Actually Katarna man I may have to dissagree with you, at the sort of pressure these gasses are at in liquid form I don't think you would need an external ignition source......
It sounds a jolly fun Idea to check out, Tom can you set up a web cam as you try it out so we can all watch!
Mike
It sounds a jolly fun Idea to check out, Tom can you set up a web cam as you try it out so we can all watch!
Mike
poppet valves rule!
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This is starting to get interesting 'cos I read in an authoritative book (think pulsoids) that if you sprayed NO2 on an open fire it would put it out!
The point was that the oxygen only disassociates from the nitrogen at the sort of temperatures and pressures found in a combustion chamber.
As I've just used two five syllable words (thank god for spell chekkers) I'm now going to have a lie-down for the rest of the afternoon
The point was that the oxygen only disassociates from the nitrogen at the sort of temperatures and pressures found in a combustion chamber.
As I've just used two five syllable words (thank god for spell chekkers) I'm now going to have a lie-down for the rest of the afternoon
It's an engine Jim.....but not as we know it
Which it will - but in the tank, it's under pressure, or will be when pumped, and is already combined with the fuel that will disassociate the oxygen from the nitrogen when ignited and BOOM!that if you sprayed NO2 on an open fire it would put it out!
........I think!
It'd give you terrible running problems I think anyway - from having uneven mixtures of nitrous and fuel as it was pumped to the engine from the tank - due to poor mixing, or settling in the tank and gaseous nitrous (possibly?) at the top of the tank.
Thinking about this a little deeper.
The two gasses have different densities. They would probably separate out in the tank at rest. I dont know actual figures, but I'm sure the boiling points must be different, but both are very low, and I'm wondering how the mix would react to a given temperature inside the cylinder. I dont know if this blend would be an azeotrope like some refrigerant blends where the two compounds stay pretty much mixed as one blend throughout the temperature and pressure ranges that you would find in the fuel system. Therefore, when trying to pass the blend through and orifice, you may get one of the gasses expanding into a vapour while the other one stays almost liquid. The resultant drop in temperature at the point of pressure drop may also cause one of the gasses to condense back into liquid form and give some strange vapour/liquid mixture. This could some sort of shockwave effect in the fuel delivery system I'm sure.
If this was the case, at the point of detonation, the igniting mix may pulsate from rich to lean at a fast rate.
Just a theory.
Would be interesting to see what Trevor Langfiled might have to say about trying to blend the two.
The two gasses have different densities. They would probably separate out in the tank at rest. I dont know actual figures, but I'm sure the boiling points must be different, but both are very low, and I'm wondering how the mix would react to a given temperature inside the cylinder. I dont know if this blend would be an azeotrope like some refrigerant blends where the two compounds stay pretty much mixed as one blend throughout the temperature and pressure ranges that you would find in the fuel system. Therefore, when trying to pass the blend through and orifice, you may get one of the gasses expanding into a vapour while the other one stays almost liquid. The resultant drop in temperature at the point of pressure drop may also cause one of the gasses to condense back into liquid form and give some strange vapour/liquid mixture. This could some sort of shockwave effect in the fuel delivery system I'm sure.
If this was the case, at the point of detonation, the igniting mix may pulsate from rich to lean at a fast rate.
Just a theory.
Would be interesting to see what Trevor Langfiled might have to say about trying to blend the two.
- The Original Tom
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B.P of C3H8 is -42C (or -44F)
B.P of N2O is -88.5C
So...
The VAP for the LPG can vaporise LPG, and will therefore have no problem vaporising the NOX.
The main problem (as pointed out ) is the volitility of the mixture, and making it separate.
I've discovered (through utterly non-scientific means!) that the separation wil be a big problem.
Put in common terms - the density of cooking oil is 92kg/cu meter. The density of water is 100kg/cu meter, and we all know the oil readily floats on water and is hard to get into solution. I know there are molecular forces involved here, making the hydrophobic oil stay away from the water, but it still floats.
The difference in this example is 8kg/cu meter yet density causes separation.
The difference between NOX and C3H8 is 641kg/cu meter!!!!
So it would appear that regardless of wether the compression of the 2 in a vessel would cause spontaneous combustion, it won't work any way!
Even if it could be kept mixed, as mentioned, keeping an accurate balance of the 2 would be a nightmare: The remedy to which would be 2 tanks and 2 control valves, pretty much a normal NOX kit on an LPG car then
There we go, started and finished my own concept! .
More "brainwaves" soon I'm sure...
B.P of N2O is -88.5C
So...
The VAP for the LPG can vaporise LPG, and will therefore have no problem vaporising the NOX.
The main problem (as pointed out ) is the volitility of the mixture, and making it separate.
I've discovered (through utterly non-scientific means!) that the separation wil be a big problem.
Put in common terms - the density of cooking oil is 92kg/cu meter. The density of water is 100kg/cu meter, and we all know the oil readily floats on water and is hard to get into solution. I know there are molecular forces involved here, making the hydrophobic oil stay away from the water, but it still floats.
The difference in this example is 8kg/cu meter yet density causes separation.
The difference between NOX and C3H8 is 641kg/cu meter!!!!
So it would appear that regardless of wether the compression of the 2 in a vessel would cause spontaneous combustion, it won't work any way!
Even if it could be kept mixed, as mentioned, keeping an accurate balance of the 2 would be a nightmare: The remedy to which would be 2 tanks and 2 control valves, pretty much a normal NOX kit on an LPG car then
There we go, started and finished my own concept! .
More "brainwaves" soon I'm sure...
Rover 3.5 V8 landy - Completely rebuilt and purring... Now awaiting a good tune!!
Oil and water is a different case and not a good example after all we all breath air made up mostly of three gasses that have different densities but mix well. Add a touch of detergent and oil/water will soon mix Alcohol and coke are different too but thankfully JD and coke still mix very well I know its all different stuff but basically you need to look at the chemical bonds to see if they will mix and not the densities. Assuming it didn't blow up and they did mix properly I think your major problem would be the mixture ratios and melting pistons. Much better to use two tanks and mix them at the engine as per normal. Course if you wanted to run fuel and oxygen together then nitro is what you want from the top fuel racers. Not very economical mind you lol.
- jefferybond
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Hi guys,
Tony asked me to post a response to this thread, to straighten out any misconceptions.
I’ll deal with the issues that I feel need clearing up as individually points;
1) You would not be able to find an electric pump strong enough or small enough to pump nitrous oxide in a car
2) You wouldn’t need a pump to transfer nitrous because of the pressure
3) Nitrous oxide in gaseous form at atmospheric pressure would be the only form that it could be mixed with petrol or gaseous LPG
4) Gaseous nitrous can be dissolved in fuels but only in insignificant volumes
5) In gaseous form at atmospheric pressure the very small amount that would dissolve in a fuel would be of little to no benefit.
6) To be of any benefit to power production, large volumes are required and the ONLY way it’s possible to flow such volumes, is at high pressure (approx. 1,000 psi) in liquid form, as is the case with a current nitrous injection system
7) Even if liquid nitrous did mix with fuel in adequate volumes, there would be nothing to gain by pre-mixing them.
8) Nitrous and any fuel would only ignite or explode if it was also subjected to a source of ignition
9) Nitrous released from a gas cylinder under pressure (as would be the case in every day use), would indeed extinguish a flame but in the absence of adequate pressure it would accelerate combustion
If anyone else has any further imaginative but impractical suggestions for nitrous use, I’d be happy to explain why the current systems are the ONLY way to use it.
Regards
Trev
Tony asked me to post a response to this thread, to straighten out any misconceptions.
I’ll deal with the issues that I feel need clearing up as individually points;
1) You would not be able to find an electric pump strong enough or small enough to pump nitrous oxide in a car
2) You wouldn’t need a pump to transfer nitrous because of the pressure
3) Nitrous oxide in gaseous form at atmospheric pressure would be the only form that it could be mixed with petrol or gaseous LPG
4) Gaseous nitrous can be dissolved in fuels but only in insignificant volumes
5) In gaseous form at atmospheric pressure the very small amount that would dissolve in a fuel would be of little to no benefit.
6) To be of any benefit to power production, large volumes are required and the ONLY way it’s possible to flow such volumes, is at high pressure (approx. 1,000 psi) in liquid form, as is the case with a current nitrous injection system
7) Even if liquid nitrous did mix with fuel in adequate volumes, there would be nothing to gain by pre-mixing them.
8) Nitrous and any fuel would only ignite or explode if it was also subjected to a source of ignition
9) Nitrous released from a gas cylinder under pressure (as would be the case in every day use), would indeed extinguish a flame but in the absence of adequate pressure it would accelerate combustion
If anyone else has any further imaginative but impractical suggestions for nitrous use, I’d be happy to explain why the current systems are the ONLY way to use it.
Regards
Trev
Re: A natty brainwave?...
I have a brand new Davies Craig electric water pump here, so you could use that to transfer the liquid NOS.The Original Tom wrote:Nitrous = compressed gas, LPG = compressed gas.
Using an electric transfer pump to transfer some NOX into the gas tank (say about 8 litres of liquid)...
I guess the plastic pump casing will hold 1000psi, but I'd double up the Jubilee clips on the hoses.....
Sorry