Valves for 300 heads??

kiwicar · Post by **kiwicar** » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:53 am

No I have not had my hands on a set, but I have seen alot of pictures and power curves.
a very good reason for choosing 11/32 valves is they come out of a GM parts bin, yes I know I am comming back to this again but it is a key factor to understanding how you can get any aftermarket heads . . COST If I buy a set of 8 mm valves for an audi 100 engine (as I have done) bog stock two piece steel valves cost around £65 each, let me repeat that £65 each If I buy a set of one piece forged stainless steel swirle pollished small block chevy racing valves for a chevy small block they cost me £130 for 16, now to populate 2 heads with 8 mm valves as you propose will add £910 to the price of the heads, (this is just down to the quantity of the chevy valves made). The Audi valves give me weaker valve and save only 16% of stem area in an area where there is not a pinch point in the flow of the head and in a set of ports that were developed with the thicker valve stems in mind. . this will most likely reduce flow not increase it.
As for weight of the valves, no big deal, if you are bothered about saving valve train weight you don't even look at the weight of the valves until you have fitter a mechanical cam (this alone will save you more weight than any valve change) swapped in titanium retainers and thrown your adjustable push rods in the bin where they belong and fitted lightweight 4130 cro-molly steel ones push rods.
For referance the differance in weight between a set stock SBC valves and $175 a pop titanium valves is a little 25% I can save that same weight by going from standard push rods to 4130 ones.

Please get over this idea that head porting is about making all the holes bigger, it is absolutly not! The more is good too much is better aproach is the quickest way to reduce flow in a port. head porting primerily about reducing turbulance and keeping the change in port area conasant from the entrance of the inlet tract to where you open into the bowel area here controlling turbulance is everything and the correct shape of the valve is part of it, not the area of the stem, just look at racing exhaust valves if you need any proof.
Best regards
Mike

kiwicar · Post by **kiwicar** » Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:21 pm

Hi
I think this has been posted up before, http://www.flowspeed.com/brady-tc.htm however it think it makes the point very well that porting is about getting the port shapes smooth and reducing turbulance not about making them as big as possable.
Best regards
Mike

minorv8 · Post by **minorv8** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:36 am

here is a link to an article a few years back: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/engine ... ewall.html

It is an interesting story about the 305 chevy engine (the mother of all hi-po engines

). With 3,736" bore and 3,48" stroke it is quite close to a stroked 5-litre Rover engine. This particular story has EQ Vortec heads with 1,94" x 1,5" valves and the intake flow is around 230 cfm mark. Judging by the results the valve size is reasonably good, but the EQ heads are claimed to be excellent especially if you take the price into account. They might produce almost similar results with slightly smaller intake valve. So, for big Rover engine the 1,94" valve might be OK, for smaller sized a bit too much. Again, it is the combination that counts, not a single component.

11/32" stems are old but plentiful, reflecting in the price. They might not be hipo but with 6000 rpm limit (with longer stroke even less) it really does not matter if you can control the valvetrain with proper springs. I have revved my engine up to 6400 rpm with single beehive springs and Merlin valves. I don´t even know how much higher it would rev but it is irrelevant anyway if the power starts to tail off before 6000 rpm. Lighter valves would be meaningless.

I checked the prices on Manley intake valves, with 11/32" stem Summit racing site quotes USD 122 a set, with 5/16" stem USD 155 a set and with 7 mm stem USD 229. The smaller stems may and often will require different locks and retainers thus adding to the price.

kiwicar · Post by **kiwicar** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:04 am

Hi
I think this emphersises the point about imperial US components and european, although the 5/16 are more expensive it is not to the extent of 8mm european stem sizes, even specialist "limmited" use US sizes are vastly more common than european sizes and this is reflected in the cost.
Best regards
Mike

kokkolanpoika · Post by **kokkolanpoika** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:18 pm

kiwicar: Can you post those dynoresults.. I have seen couple on this forum, but they are not so impressive.. Of course they are good VS stock rover heads or stage 3..

My friend sell car part´s, stainless steel swirle pollished 8mm valves 16x = 250£ inc vat.. Not sure are they forged? Suitable cro-molly locks 32x 10£ inc vat + 16x retainers approx 100£ inc vat. And you have got lot of possibility where to choose.

And i will estimate that 8mm valve is not a weak, i have seen Volvo 2.8-3litre 4-cylinder 8valve race engine witch will rev +8000rpm without issues, and they will use 8mm stem or smaller. Also Ford OHC use 8mm stem and rev almost 10 000 rpm when racing.. Mutch bigger valves than Merlin/rover heads..

And i wont touch titanium/aluminium retainers, they are only suitable for racing, not for street use, because they are "soft".. Locks will punch inside the retainer. I have seen too many examples..

Yes valve is one part of the port. But merlin exhaust valve and port shape dosen´t match correctly. We have tested this on flow bench using STD heads. Our head porter say before we tested it, that exhaust side is not good as it can be. Port shape is better than ported rover, but it wont flow. Of course you can modify those valves, but i do not see any point no more. Same word give our race engine builder when he machine merlin head´s valve´s installation height. he want to change both valves..

Of course port shape is important, but many poor ports give excellent results..

Too many technical word´s to my English skill´s

As i allways say, why automotivecomp 5.0 wild cat engine only give 397hp? It has got crossover inlet manifold also. Big valves, new raised ports, they flow 50-100cfm more than any rover heads.. Is it running STD 3.5Efi mild cam? i think not.

Daniel Jones · Post by **Daniel Jones** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:38 pm

> this upgrade will involve 300 heads which I am acquiring, but which valves would you guys recommend to put in them?

I used 6000 Series Ferrea Buick V6 Stage 1 valves in my ported Buick 300 heads.
The intake valves used are part number F6238 (1.775" head diameter, 11/32" stem,
4.735" long with a 0.271" tip). Exhausts are part number F6237 (1.5" head diameter,
11/32" stem, 4.735" long with a 0.254" tip). Intake head shape is a 10 degree Super
Flo. Exhaust is a 29 degree tulip. The larger valves required larger seats, p/n 30903
for the intake and p/n 30647 for the exhaust. Also, the porter removed the guides to get
access to the bowl for porting.

Flow numbers for head without intake were taken on a Superflow bench at 28" H2O with a
clayed intake radius but no exhaust pipe and a 4" diameter tube to simulate the cylinder
wall.

1964 Buick 300 aluminum heads (ported)
Lift Int Exh
(inch) 1.775" 1.5"
0.100 66 47
0.150 99 82
0.200 129 104
0.250 155 119
0.300 174 130
0.350 187 139
0.400 191 146
0.450 194 150
0.500 196 152
0.550 200 153
0.600 200 153

The links in some of those old references are broken. Pictures of the heads should
are here:

http://www.bacomatic.org/gallery2/v/hid ... ?g2_page=1
http://www.bacomatic.org/gallery2/v/hid ... ?g2_page=2

The intake manifold is a Huffaker single plane which matches the Buick 300 ports.
We recently did another set of these heads for a local (to me in St. Louis, Missouri
USA) MGBV8 guy and he was able to source a reproduction Huffaker from the UK.

> Also am thinking about pistons, flat tops are ideal for NOS with valve cut out I
> should imagine so I can use a high lift cam. Want compression ratio to be over ten
> if possible, but will I require welding to the bowls to make this?

No need to weld up the chambers to get over 10:1 if using a custom flat top pistons.

Dan Jones

r2d2hp · Post by **r2d2hp** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:10 pm

Hi Dan, that the valve's I am going to use. Out of interest do you have details of the rocker gear?

regards
Reg

Daniel Jones · Post by **Daniel Jones** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:37 pm

> Out of interest do you have details of the rocker gear?

They are oilite bronze bushed Harland Sharp roller tip rockers on standard shafts
from TSI:

http://www.tsimportedautomotive.com/tr7_tr8.html

They go for $425 USD per set. Since the rockers have a wider body than the OEM
rockers, the shaft springs require trimming but I removed them and am using
solid spacers and wave washers instead. I'm also using end stands from D&D:

http://www.aluminumv8.com/new/newstuff.htm

Their standard version is for the OEM rockers but they will machine them for the
wider Harland Sharp roller rockers. I also have a set of GM 215 race heads (designed
for Mickey Thompson's Buick 215 powered Indy Car project - they are similar to Buick
300 heads but have the smaller Buick 215 chambers). Those have had the pedestals
milled down and replaced by a screw-in flat bar which is drilled and tapped for stud
mount small block Chevy roller rockers. Mine were done long ago but David Nelson
offers a similar kit (his uses an aluminum flat bar, mine is steel). David got some
press in Hot Rod magazine when he built a stroked Buick 300.

Dan Jones

DaviesDJ · Post by **DaviesDJ** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:52 pm

But Eales talks about bore overlap and shroud with valves of that size???? Would standard rover rocker gear be modified so it can be used??

kokkolanpoika · Post by **kokkolanpoika** » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:36 pm

Forget those flow figures..

I wanna see real results, not flow figures..

What would happend if use 300heads and 1.7" inlet valve? Is it flowing better than rover?

DaviesDJ what size bore you have got? I think Eales use usually 94mm bore, not 96mm "big bore".
What inlet manifold you are blanning to use? You can modify head bolt holes to slightly oval, and move those heads/valves close to centerline, this will help bore shrounding.. 2-3mm is possible without big issues.. But you need ITB manifold or home made..

DaviesDJ · Post by **DaviesDJ** » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:16 pm

Cross over DCOE manifold that can be moved - current Eddie performer, when you move the centre line I take it you put in an alternative dowel?? And use longer push rod?

kokkolanpoika · Post by **kokkolanpoika** » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:47 am

Yes you have to move you´r dowell place also.. You can weld up those original holes in the head, and then drilled new holes.. It is not a big deal..

I just sen E-mail to automotivecomp and ask what cam they are running their 5.0l wild cat engine. Roland response: Mechanical M248cam, he didin´t tell valve lift.. Engine is designed for off road race, so it is mild tune. In my mind M248, 10.5CR, wild cat heads, crossover manifold is not a mild tune anymore.
I will expect slightly more power that 398hp. You allways speak here 420-440hp with mild cam. like M238.. So what mod´s we have to do to get this 420hp? Fit a M256 race cam?

minorv8 · Post by **minorv8** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:14 am

Just find an optimistic rolling road and you get pretty much what you want

DaviesDJ · Post by **DaviesDJ** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:00 pm

Ok guys am going for the ferrea valves, but what do you think about springs and retainers,. Our project is aiming for a track power band of up to 8000. Have read about beehive configurations but don't know how easy beehive valves are to find. What is the best way to size springs based on valve length ?? Thanks for your help guys

kiwicar · Post by **kiwicar** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:25 am

Hi
You don't need valve length as a starting point, you need the height between the underside of the desired retainer and the spring seat. With just valve spring length you still have too many vatiables, the collets can vary the height by about 2mm and the retainers by quite a bit more. I would recommend starting with drawing it all out on paper. Find a valve that fits in the head and a retainer and collets and measure and draw that out from there the best place to start is with spring charts from comp cams or Iskydine and find a valve spring that offers about the right range of lift and spring rate, on seat height and compressed length to coil bind should be there, remember you need 60 thou between each pair of coils at max lift, some charts quote minimum height with this clearance to make life easy. Next look at retainers and collets for to match up to your valves. Really you are going to have to do alot of this yourself, but I would get the right height gauge for measuring between the valve seat and the underside of the retainer. You will eventually end up with a series of drawings that take into account the different components and the changes you need to make to get it all to work.
Beehive springs are meant to be good especially where valve stem length is limited as they can work with less distance between coils.
Best regards
Mike