Could this be the answer to RV8 Oil Pump Problems?

Ian Anderson · Post by **Ian Anderson** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:11 am

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/oilsystems.htm

stevieturbo · Post by **stevieturbo** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:21 am

I'm lost.

What's the problem, and where is the solution ?

Ian Anderson · Post by **Ian Anderson** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:34 am

Electric oil pump

either as a wet sump or dry sump arrangement to be constantly variable to always have oil pressure at a set psi from idle to WOT (Dry sumped to never need to worry about surging.

No more of the "bleed the pump before you start"
Turn on ignition and oil pump starts once pressure ther safe to start the engine.

Also for turbo systems it can be left pumping for a minute or two to cool the bearings in the turbo

With the variable speed you will also only pump as much as necessary and not have ????? how many gallons per minute going theough the bypass? (That must also rob HP)

Or is it just thinking out the box!

Ian

stevieturbo · Post by **stevieturbo** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:40 am

Those pumps are in no way capable of supplying an engine.

They are scavenge pumps only.

And no way would I ever trust a weedy electric motor to keep my engine alive.
You know how much load a drill comes under when priming....how could a feeble 12v electric motor ever keep up ???

After I fitted the Mocal oil pump cover to mine, I never had a problem.

Ian Anderson · Post by **Ian Anderson** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:06 pm

I believe the BMW M5 series are now electric pumps!

I see it as a way forward

could be wrong though

Ian

stevieturbo · Post by **stevieturbo** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:10 pm

If they do...I'd imagine they are very substantial.

Although I'd be sceptical that they do. Water pumps.....I think a few do now.

14500rpm · Post by **14500rpm** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:03 pm

A quick google found this:

'All this performance meant that support systems had to be augmented also. M engineers developed a high efficiency cooling and oiling system, which consists of an isolated wet sump and four oil pumps: two electric, on mechanical drain, and one main variable mechanical pressure pump that delivers only the necessary oil required. The main pump was mechanical because of the Two electric pumps at the sides of the oil sump picks up oil from the outer cylinder head on each respective side and pumps it back into the sump once cornering loads exceed 0.6 g. Ultimately, the system can deliver the required lubrication flow at up to 54* of roll, or 1.3 g of lateral or breaking acceleration.'

So not a true electric oil pump, the rest of the article is HERE

Good article actually, some interesting pics and renderings too!

stevieturbo · Post by **stevieturbo** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:08 pm

SO their electric pumps are scavenge pumps too.

topcatcustom · Post by **topcatcustom** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:42 pm

I dont think all electric motors are weedy- the ones Shelby are using in their new car are 500bhp each, but thats not the point. A few years ago would you have thought water pumps and power steering pumps would go electric? I think its perfectly feasable oil pumps could be electric soon, I dont think its asking that much at all and there are more mechanical losses to eliminate by going electric, plus if you are worried about losing pressure and wrecking an engine- I'm sure you could put a pressure safety cut out switch in there for about £10!!!

stevieturbo · Post by **stevieturbo** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:15 pm

If it aint broke.....

Ian Anderson · Post by **Ian Anderson** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:08 am

Stevie

Would we ever have had fuel injection if people thought that way about carbs?

What about oils - stick to a single grade SAE40? or run multigrade

I see this as something that will happen

Ian

stevieturbo · Post by **stevieturbo** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:03 pm

Its not quite the same. Fuel injection offers massive improvements over a carb.

I cant see any real improvements an electric oil pump would offer to an engine over the tried and tested, ultra reliable mechanical pump.
I still wouldnt even entrust water cooling to an electric pump on a road car. Race car...where it isnt used for extended periods...perhaps, but not a road car.

Post by **katanaman** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:25 pm

I hear what your all saying but I am with Stevie on this. Mechanical pumps seldom fail suddenly whether water or oil, they give warning. Electric pumps/motors fail suddenly and completely. EFI is different thats more electronic than mechanical. there are many people wont trust EFI either, I believe your one of them Ian since you keep threatening to go carb because you cant be arsed to sort your EFI out properly. Yes you have the fuel pump but it isn't moving anything like the volume or handling anything like the heat. Does the RV8 oil pump have a problem? It isn't the best for sure but once running its very reliable to the tune of hundreds of thousands in operation and millions if you include the buick variants which have damn near the same pump system. Topcat your right if you had an electric oil pump you would absolutely have to have a cut out and kill the engine immediately or the engine will be killed.
All these things have their time to come for sure but not until the manufacturers agree on a new voltage standard. 12v just doesn't cut it these days, there is far too many amps being drawn and alternators are getting to the max without going bigger body wise and with cars getting smaller there just isnt the room. Once the voltage is sorted you will see all this kit like it or not, you will also see proper electric superchargers and many other goodies.

minorv8 · Post by **minorv8** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:58 am

There are also far more simpler solutions for pre start pressure build up. E.g. Canton´s Accusump, Moroso´s similar systems etc.

As for oiling, I would not trust an electric pump. Period.

Currently some engine buidlers in USA (really serious big V8 turbo engines 1500 + hp for street

) use mechanical pumps again for fuel supply since they feel that even a pair of BIG electric pumps cannot handle the needs. But that´s slightly offtopic.

stevieturbo · Post by **stevieturbo** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:53 am

Mechanical fuel pumps do have a lot going for them, but ease of installation isnt one.

The low current fuel pumps are well tried and tested. Just a simple motor mostly.

As Katana says. At 12v...the current required to drive water and oil would be immense. Just not practical.
Even the electric PAS systems can draw 40-50A

When the alternator fails on these cars....the PAS stops working ( Vauxhaulls anyway )

Even systems like Accusump etc...Ive heard very experienced guys say that unless you have the valving right for your engine, they can do more harm than good.