Here we go again...

BadgerV8 · Post by **BadgerV8** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:16 pm

Hello all.

The _long_ story so far:-

Approaching a couple of years ago now, the tired all-original SD1 EFI lump in my kit car had served me well for many years. It was burning a good bit oil, fowling its plugs and in need of some attention. I'd been saving up for a while and decided to go for the new engine option, as it was my only car and I didn't want her off the road for too long. A brand new 4.6 turn key engine with a webber on top seemed like good value for money. From a reasonably reputable V8 specialist (not V8D or DJE).

After a little trimming & tightening the odd loose bold on the timing cover, and taking a few of the missing bits from my old engine ('turn key'?)... Engine in. Oil pressure comes up after a while of cranking. Fires-up, roughly set the timing, seems a bit noisey but thats to be expected. Noises quieten down, seems healthy. Up to temperature, seems good so far! First oil change, dark and filthy after about 200 gentle miles... I guess thats normal on a new block. Noisey... sounds like tappets. Rocker covers off, rockers look oilly. Builder assures me this will go away and to keep driving. 500 miles, the noise doesn't seem much better and the supplier arrange for a local range rover specialist to change the tappets, as thats the likely problem. A week later, I get the car back, no different. 700 miles, next oil change, much clearer, still tapping at low revs.

>CRUNCH!< An on coming car turns infront of me on a junction and writes the car off by a gentleman who put it down to a "senior moment".

<sigh>

Nearly a year later, the car is rebuilt with lots of new shiney bits and all was looking good for this years road trip. Except the tapping was now much worse. The suppliers are still helpful, despite the warrently being long gone. "Ahh.. When did you buy your engine? Err... Start it up with the rockers off and check there's oil oozing from the rockers." I do. One side seems dry. Odd. It turns out my engine had a semi-drilled oil passage way on one side... something to do with a troublesome CNC machine making a big batch of them. FFS!

Rather than taking the engine out of the car and transporting it hundreds of miles, I took the suppliers offer of new rockers, shafts, rods, gaskets, £500 and vacuum cleaner attachment. "Rover went round fixing a lot of the blocks, but its not a difficult job..." Apart from removing the oil core plugs, it went smoothly... Plugging surrounging holes, vacuum in the right place and some careful drilling. Lots of swarf in the vacuum cleaner and little in the engine. Back together, quick run up to temperature, sounding much better. Oil change to be on the safe side.

Two weeks until road trip time was cutting it a bit fine, but everything seems OK at last. A quick tune up at the local engine whisperers before departure, as it didn't seem quite as quick as I remember... The vacuum advance/retard diaphram was bust, probably from the senior moment incident. More worrying was the 50% compression on No5 cylinder, and roughly 75% on the two either side. No time for that! A new diaphram fitted the day before departure didn't fix the advance/retard problem, but it'll have to do!

3000 miles later, Italy and back was a nice enough trip (despite all the rain). Guzzling a lot of petrol and feeling slower than the old 3.5, everything kept working despite no serious shakedown (OK.. apart from a gearbox linkage ball joint falling apart, blowing 20 odd fuses and intermitent rear lights!) The engine was no better or worse by the end of the trip.

Back in to the garage with car... I'd spent the best half of 2008 working on it, the problems can wait!

Right, Xmas time-off is here, the garage is cold, but its time to get this car working properly.

The timing is not a problem, the old EFI one should solve that for now.

Now the questions:-

1) I found this site a little too late regarding all the shinanigans the missing oil passage. It was the one joining to more vertical passage going up to the head. Drilling, flushing and replacing the hole rocker assembly on that side should be OK after 500 miles of gentle use? There was supprisingly little wear, which I put down to the oil splashing up there. ?

2) The low compression. This is on the other side to where the oil problem was, and so I guessing is unrelated. How should I approach this? I'm assuming the bores are fine, considering the very very low milage. The fact that the cyclinder either side is also low make me think head gasket is blown between them. Is this likely on a barely run in 4.6 with composite gasket? Or is it the dreaded porous block? Coolant is clean, very little muck in the catch tank, oil uncontaminated.

Any suggestions before taking the head off and having a look? Would it be worth have the block pressure tested before hand? If its going to end up needing top hat liners, I need to get busy sooner rather than later...

cheers for reading this far,
Dave

ChrisJC · Post by **ChrisJC** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:09 pm

I would whip the heads off. You can check for head gasket failure then.
Head gasket failure on these engines doesn't necessarily affect coolant level, and sometimes it just sounds noisy! (like the manifold is blowing).

Then if you find that all is in order, then a block pressure test may be required. I guess you could try a pressure test before you remove the heads, but I'm not sure what it will tell you that loosing coolant won't.

Chris.

CastleMGBV8 · Post by **CastleMGBV8** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:45 am

Dave,

Who supplied this engine, if it was a brand new turnkey engine shouldn't they be sorting out your problems?

Which pair of cylinders are showing low compression not 6 & 8 is it, that the two rearmost ones on the left looking from the front of the car.

Kevin.

badger · Post by **badger** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:00 am

If it wasn't for the fact that he's vanished off the face of the earth, I'd probably be forgiven for thinking it was a "Lund" engine......!
Or then again, maybe even an RIP one!

Good luck, hope you get it sorted properly.

BadgerV8 · Post by **BadgerV8** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:40 pm

CastleMGBV8 wrote:Dave,

Who supplied this engine, if it was a brand new turnkey engine shouldn't they be sorting out your problems?

Which pair of cylinders are showing low compression not 6 & 8 is it, that the two rearmost ones on the left looking from the front of the car.

Kevin.

I've lost all faith in other peoples handy work lately and will be happier doing the work myself. The indards of my engine is one of the few areas of my car where I don't know every nut & washer, so it seems like a good excuse! (depending on the cause of the poor compression, of course)

It would be...

4 @ 75%
6 @ 50%
8 @ 75% All others very close to 100%.

Using the computerised gadget at the engine whispers (the ones that monitor RPM while dropping the spark on each cylinder in turn). I'm going to pick up a propper compression meter tomorrow and double check before removing the head.

Dare I ask, what is the significance of the cylinder 6 & 8 problem.. ?

BadgerV8 · Post by **BadgerV8** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:50 pm

badger wrote:If it wasn't for the fact that he's vanished off the face of the earth, I'd probably be forgiven for thinking it was a "Lund" engine......!
Or then again, maybe even an RIP one!

Good luck, hope you get it sorted properly.

Arr Badger, if RIP is an anagram, then yes, it was. Although they have been fairly helpful, and I'm under the impression it just been some bad luck at the end of the day... Unless others have had similar experiences?

BadgerV8 · Post by **BadgerV8** » Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:11 pm

Merry Christmas!

A fine boxing day spent in the garage so far... It looks like santa's fixed it for me!

cyl - bar (peak reading after 4 or 5 compression strokes, plugs out, large extra battery hooked on, warm engine, using a traditional gauge)

1 - 13
2 - 13.5
3 - 13
4 - 13
5 - 13
6 - 13
7 - 13.25
8 - 13

Now does that mean the power distribution test is rubbish, or just that compression isn't the problem?

I think I'll do the ignition modification the list recommends, using the SD1 EFI distributor, rather than the dodgy duel point I have on at the moment. Maybe that is all thats required to improves things? Fingers crossed...

Eliot · Post by **Eliot** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:02 am

BadgerV8 wrote:rather than the dodgy duel point I have on at the moment. Maybe that is all thats required to improves things? Fingers crossed...

RIP must have a room full of those things! They are garbage. Make sure you carry 10 spare condensors, as they are famously unreliable.

CastleMGBV8 · Post by **CastleMGBV8** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:35 pm

Dave,

The relevance of cylinders 6 & 8 is that according to Des Hamill's excellent book "How To Power Tune Rover V8 Engine's" the most common area for cracks behind the liners on 4.0 and 4.6 engines.

Your compession test looks encouraging, but may not be giving you the whole picture.

The oil feed problem with the undrilled feed in one head is a bit of a mystery, as I have not heard of it before as is the continuing problem of noisy valve gear which on newish engine may suggest that the lifters are not pumping up, unless it it is fitted with Rhoads lifters which bleed down at low RPM.

What spec is the engine, standard cam, heads etc? if standard the lifter preload whilst probably being far from perfect should not be so far out as to cause problems due to preload being outside of the accepted 20-60 thou tolerence but if this a built up engine from used parts that cannot be totaly ruled out.

Kevin.

Darkspeed · Post by **Darkspeed** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:48 pm

Unless I am mistaken 4,6,8 have the longest ignition leads if using supressed leads and resistive "R" plugs this gives the spark a bit of a hard time giving its full power where you need it. The chop test is just telling you that these cylinders are poor power wise not compression wise.

I use a water test spraying water onto the header soon tells you what ones are down on power - and infra red temp monitor is the next investment for me.

This is fresh in my mind because I am just replacing the Opus system with original ballast pack that had been installed in my Ginetta with a 12V coil !!! spark was just not man enough to get to plug 8 at all and only 4 and 6 occasionally

Cheers

Andrew

tetlow · Post by **tetlow** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 4:38 pm

Any thoughts on a Petronix upgrade and using a High Volt coil?

It seemd to work fo me.

Dave

BadgerV8 · Post by **BadgerV8** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:25 pm

Eliot wrote:RIP must have a room full of those things! They are garbage. Make sure you carry 10 spare condensors, as they are famously unreliable.

My first condenser went within 500 miles... Definitely time to chuck it in my pile of used V8 bits!

Post by **Rossco** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:31 pm

.......or get a Hyfire VI to go with it.

That's the only reliable way to use a dual point

BadgerV8 · Post by **BadgerV8** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:47 pm

CastleMGBV8 wrote:Dave,

The relevance of cylinders 6 & 8 is that according to Des Hamill's excellent book "How To Power Tune Rover V8 Engine's" the most common area for cracks behind the liners on 4.0 and 4.6 engines.

I keep meaning to order that book.

CastleMGBV8 wrote: Your compession test looks encouraging, but may not be giving you the whole picture.

The oil feed problem with the undrilled feed in one head is a bit of a mystery, as I have not heard of it before as is the continuing problem of noisy valve gear which on newish engine may suggest that the lifters are not pumping up, unless it it is fitted with Rhoads lifters which bleed down at low RPM.

RIP say there was a batch they sold in 2006 which all had this problem, hidden behind a core plug. Also that some new 4.6 RRs also had these duff engines. The engines a lot quieter now, but maybe not 100%? I'd need to listen to it next to a good one to be sure.

CastleMGBV8 wrote: What spec is the engine, standard cam, heads etc? if standard the lifter preload whilst probably being far from perfect should not be so far out as to cause problems due to preload being outside of the accepted 20-60 thou tolerence but if this a built up engine from used parts that cannot be totaly ruled out.

a new 4.6 & std heads, balanced new crank & con rods, std 94mm pistons,
Piper 270/2 cam, std tapets, jp duplex timing gear, new std rockers, shafts, springs, lightened fly wheel, malory dual point (now swapped for efi dissy), magnecor leads, etc. Now with about 4000 miles on it.

I'll be shopping for new ignition module on monday, and see what happens..

cheers,
Dave

BadgerV8 · Post by **BadgerV8** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:52 pm

Darkspeed wrote:Unless I am mistaken 4,6,8 have the longest ignition leads if using supressed leads and resistive "R" plugs this gives the spark a bit of a hard time giving its full power where you need it. The chop test is just telling you that these cylinders are poor power wise not compression wise.

I use a water test spraying water onto the header soon tells you what ones are down on power - and infra red temp monitor is the next investment for me.

This is fresh in my mind because I am just replacing the Opus system with original ballast pack that had been installed in my Ginetta with a 12V coil !!! spark was just not man enough to get to plug 8 at all and only 4 and 6 occasionally

This seems to fit the symptoms quite nicely! I had thought the spark looked a bit weak at tick over... I'll be very happy if a little ignition upgrade solves all my woes!