Rover 3.5 v8 with little torque

General Chat About Exhaust, Cylinder Heads, Fuel Systems And Intake

Moderator: phpBB2 - Administrators

Post Reply
Church of Noise
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Belgium

Rover 3.5 v8 with little torque

Post by Church of Noise »

Dear all,

Recently, my MGB GT V8 received a fresh(er) engine to replace the original engine that had, to my knowledge, never been rebuilt.

The 'new' engine is a rebuilt Land Rover Disco engine, a 3.5.
It has increased compression (9:1), flowed heads, EFI cam, Edelbrock 1403 on JWR manifold, new distributor with RPI ARP Amplifier, ARP mains studs and a Cloyes roller timing chain set. The engine has about 10.000 miles on it, so should be nicely run in.
Rolling road results: 186hp at 4800 rpm (flywheel, 143 at the wheels) when the carb and timing were tweaked at Airey Tuning. (all of this was done by the previous owner of the engine, who also built it)

I noticed during my first drive that, below 3.5k rpm, some torque seems to have been lost, in fact it feels rather anaemic. The fact that the difference in torque in such a relatively light car is so noticeable, makes me somewhat unhappy to be honest.
Above 3.5k rpm however, there is quite a bit more power than before. (but it's not a track car)
Generally, the engine runs very very smoothly except when I floor the throttle, at which point the car seems to develop a 'hickup'.

Now, there are several ways to fix this, and I'd like to have some of your input on what the wisest approach would be:
  • Replace Edelbrock carb, intake etc and refit factory twin SU HS6 setup - with the appropriate needle
    Fiddle with Edelbrock jets etc (to be honest, I'm not quite sure this is going to improve as the car was set up at Airey Tuning, which has quite a good reputation)
    Increase acceleration pump action (either by replacing it or by increasing its duration)
    Some other bright solution I haven't thought of
Advice is most appreciated!


DaveEFI
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 4603
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:27 pm
Location: SW London, UK

Post by DaveEFI »

Just a comment - I'd expect the peak power to be at at least 500 rpm higher than your figure. When you say EFI cam - which EFI?
Dave
London SW
Rover SD1 VDP EFI
MegaSquirt2 V3
EDIS8
Tech Edge 2Y
kiwicar
Forum Contributor
Forum Contributor
Posts: 5461
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:00 pm
Location: Milton Keynes

Post by kiwicar »

Hi
how long has the carb stood around with old fuel in it? the first thing I would do is strip and clean the carb, replace all the gaskets and seals, clean out all the jets and drillings and get it back to a decent condition. These carbs are designed for US cars of the '70s to'90s, an American car of that vintage was expected to be bought, run for 60K to 70K miles in 18 months to 2 years, sold to next owner who would take it to 120k to 150k miles over the next 2 to 2 1/2 years and then scraped. The carbs are not designed to sit around with old fuel in them and they are only made of zinc/aluminium alloy and O ring seals that are not intended to last more that about 4 or 5 years anyway.
I wouldn't go around changing the inlet style when all I suspect you need is to get what you have back into good condition.
Do some basic checks for things like flattened cam lobes, look at the oil for metal inclusions, how old is the distributor? was it renewed with the engine or has it been in another engine already? again if it is 60k+ miles old replace it with a new one. Is it a stock oil pump or has a high pressure spring been fitted.
Best regards
Mike
poppet valves rule!
Church of Noise
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Belgium

Post by Church of Noise »

DaveEFI wrote:Just a comment - I'd expect the peak power to be at at least 500 rpm higher than your figure. When you say EFI cam - which EFI?
Dave,
Good question, it is the 3.9 EFI cam.
kiwicar wrote:Hi
how long has the carb stood around with old fuel in it? the first thing I would do is strip and clean the carb, replace all the gaskets and seals, clean out all the jets and drillings and get it back to a decent condition. These carbs are designed for US cars of the '70s to'90s, an American car of that vintage was expected to be bought, run for 60K to 70K miles in 18 months to 2 years, sold to next owner who would take it to 120k to 150k miles over the next 2 to 2 1/2 years and then scraped. The carbs are not designed to sit around with old fuel in them and they are only made of zinc/aluminium alloy and O ring seals that are not intended to last more that about 4 or 5 years anyway.
I wouldn't go around changing the inlet style when all I suspect you need is to get what you have back into good condition.
Do some basic checks for things like flattened cam lobes, look at the oil for metal inclusions, how old is the distributor? was it renewed with the engine or has it been in another engine already? again if it is 60k+ miles old replace it with a new one. Is it a stock oil pump or has a high pressure spring been fitted.
Best regards
Mike
Mike,
The engine didn't move for less than 2 months, before that it was installed in the previous owner's car.
Since the engine was built (in 2011), the car did about 10.000 miles.
The cam, distibutor, carb, tappets, rocker shafts... were all new at the time the engine was built (receipts came with the engine).
As such, wear and age don't seem like probable suspects.

Interestingly, some people think this carb is not 'too much' for this engine size and specification - which was one of my first assumptions. Is that the consensus on here as well?
v8250
Getting There
Getting There
Posts: 240
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:07 pm
Location: West Berkshire

Post by v8250 »

Alex, having Alfonso de Portago as your Avatar is a very brave move...I'm sure you know his history well...but he never finished a race without at least some damage caused to his car, and often other's too...A+
sidecar
Top Dog
Top Dog
Posts: 2399
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:52 pm

Post by sidecar »

Your 500 carb is certainly not too big for a 3.5 engine, I have worked on loads of these carbs and personally I think they are a very good carb. The on-line calculators will say that the carb is too big but due to the fact that it has small primary venturies it works just fine on the 3.5 engine.

I do think that they need more than 'tweaking' before they will provide a good air/fuel ratio across all operating conditions, You really should distmantle the carb and make a note of the primary jet size, the rods and the secondary jets, at the very least the rods should be non-standard. I'm sorry to be casting doubt on the company that has worked on your carb but I have very little faith when it comes to Professionals and these carbs. One UK company sells these carbs and their jet and rod combo is truely terrible, they don't have a clue. They also state that the carb is not 'jet fussy', what a load of rubbish, I have found that in increase in the diameter of the metering rods of just 1 thou over the required rods can make the car completely undriveable.

The 3.5 engine does seem to be the one engine where it is sort of possible to give a jet and rod combo over the web, all the other sizes of Rover engines seem to need more carefully setting up as each engine can differ. As a STARTING POINT I'd run a 3.5 with 86 primaries, 67-55 rods, 95 secondaries and silver rod springs. This is 8% leaner than the base setup on cruise and 6.8% leaner than the base setup when the carb is on the power step. The secondary jets need to remain quite large as the 'small' engine does not pull much vacuum at WOT, the large jets are required in order to give the correct air/fuel ratio.
I have found that there is a load of bottom end torque locked up within the standard timing setup, it is way too retarded and because of this a load of power is lost. The 3.5 lump should be running around 12 degree advance at idle, 36 degrees all in at 2750-3000 RPM, the vac advance system does not work well with the Edelbrock carb, with the figures that I have suggested you will have to leave it disconnected.

Finally I don't think that the dual port manifolds are very good, you would be better off with an Edelbrock manifold but you may have bonnet clearance issues if you fit one. Also you must have at least 2" of clearance between the mouth of the carb and the underside of the air filter lid, if you don't you will have issues trying to get the carb calibrated correctly.
Last edited by sidecar on Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:29 pm, edited 8 times in total.
sidecar
Top Dog
Top Dog
Posts: 2399
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:52 pm

Post by sidecar »

Double post
Church of Noise
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Belgium

Post by Church of Noise »

Sidecar, good info, thanks!
I was planning on checking timing & vacuum so will keep your numbers in mind.

v8250: yes, the choice for Alfonso was ever so slightly tongue in cheek :)
sidecar
Top Dog
Top Dog
Posts: 2399
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:52 pm

Post by sidecar »

Church of Noise wrote:Sidecar, good info, thanks!
I was planning on checking timing & vacuum so will keep your numbers in mind.

v8250: yes, the choice for Alfonso was ever so slightly tongue in cheek :)
I've justed added some more info to my post!
Church of Noise
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Belgium

Post by Church of Noise »

Sidecar, thanks!
Why of why is it so difficult to find people who can actually properly tune an engine (timing, carbs, the lot)...

Apparently, Tom Airey modified one of the rods of the carb, so it'll be quite difficult to tell you what's in there today.

Does anyone have good references of people they can vouch for?
Related to that: sidecar, do you do this stuff as a business?

(important footnote: I'm in Belgium, so would prefer someone close if possible at all)
sidecar
Top Dog
Top Dog
Posts: 2399
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:52 pm

Post by sidecar »

Church of Noise wrote:Sidecar, thanks!
Why of why is it so difficult to find people who can actually properly tune an engine (timing, carbs, the lot)...

Apparently, Tom Airey modified one of the rods of the carb, so it'll be quite difficult to tell you what's in there today.

Does anyone have good references of people they can vouch for?
Related to that: sidecar, do you do this stuff as a business?

(important footnote: I'm in Belgium, so would prefer someone close if possible at all)
Nope just a hobby!

By the way both rods have to be changed, it would be a right cockup just to change/modify just one rod!

I have made rods and modified Edelbrock ones but I only go down that route when I can not find a jet and rod combo that works, it is fairly tricky work to modify rods.
Post Reply

Return to “Exhaust, Cylinder Heads, Fuel And Intake Area”