eddy 500 running rich

Johnny Rotton · Post by **Johnny Rotton** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:20 pm

Thanks for the advice guys. BISH V8, let me know if you find the note of your jet and rod sizes.

Need to look into increasing the height of the filter. From what I have read, the X Stream filter top works best with taller assemblies.

Cheers
JR

BISH V8 · Post by **BISH V8** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:47 pm

Luckily enough i also fitted the Innovate LC1 with guage so i can see how my AFR are doing at all times,and yes they are wihtin the 12.5-13.1 for best responce..Put my foot down i have instance responce in Power,I need to find my eddy book because i have circled the jetting and springs used so will let u no once ive found it

BISH V8 · Post by **BISH V8** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:23 pm

Best setup for the 4.6 using stage 3 heads and Merlin Heads are
67/55 rods in 086 Primarys with
092 secondary using the strongest springs(i think they might be silver)
and the accelerator pump in middle..

Both these settings are used by myself getting 294bhp out of rover stage 3 heads and Mark(V8 Bloke) getting 336bhp Out of his Merlin Heads..
Both engines are running with 238 Cam With yella terra roller rockers and edelbroke 500 with 3'' K & N Filter with the XTREAM Top Filter.
If i can rememember the setting is on No;6 In the chart from the edelbrock Hand Book..

Hope this helps
BISH

sidecar · Post by **sidecar** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:27 pm

BISH V8 wrote:Best setup for the 4.6 using stage 3 heads and Merlin Heads are
67/55 rods in 086 Primarys with
092 secondary using the strongest springs(i think they might be silver)
and the accelerator pump in middle..

Both these settings are used by myself getting 294bhp out of rover stage 3 heads and Mark(V8 Bloke) getting 336bhp Out of his Merlin Heads..
Both engines are running with 238 Cam With yella terra roller rockers and edelbroke 500 with 3'' K & N Filter with the XTREAM Top Filter.
If i can rememember the setting is on No;6 In the chart from the edelbrock Hand Book..

Hope this helps
BISH

Those setting may well be best for your engines but I found that the primary jet and rod combo that you are using works well on a 3.5 lump but leaves a 4.6 running too rich on the cruise mode.

The 86 jet 67 rod leans off the cruise 8.3% and on a 3.5 lump this results in the cruise AFR running at around 14-14.5:1. To get the same cruise AFR on a 4.6 lump the jet and rod combo needs to be leaned off 16%

I found that the 55 part of the rod when used with an 86 jet leaned off the power step too much (6.8%) when used on a 4.6 lump. Mine and Muscle Manta's run zero percent leaner on the power step.

Both are 4.6 lumps are 'stage III' and knock out around 300 BHP. Mine was last dyno'd at 285 but I've found at least 15 more since then,I've just not bothered to dyno the lump!

The above percentages may not tie up with the Edelbrock book, the reason is simple, the charts in the book are full of errors!

(Simple maths proves this!)

To sum up, the settings need to be worked out for each engine if you want to get them 'spot on'

BISH V8 · Post by **BISH V8** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:21 pm

My jetting & springs have been set up for track use only as power/ pickup and AFR are the most important to me. I dont believe im running to rich as its been set up on a rolling road and track so there no guess work involved,(i also have a LC1 Innovate all set up so i can see whats going on with my mixture Guage as well...various other set ups have been tried and it makes a huge difference in Pickup/hestitation..
Alot of percentage things being said which can get very confussing for people,this is my set along with mark rawlins,they run absolutely perfect with no hestitaion at all..
It is very intesting that you have managed to get an exta 15 hp.. where did you get this from and how do you know that you have gained this extra power without it being put on the rolling road

sidecar · Post by **sidecar** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:18 pm

BISH V8 wrote:My jetting & springs have been set up for track use only as power/ pickup and AFR are the most important to me. I dont believe im running to rich as its been set up on a rolling road and track so there no guess work involved,(i also have a LC1 Innovate all set up so i can see whats going on with my mixture Guage as well...various other set ups have been tried and it makes a huge difference in Pickup/hestitation..
Alot of percentage things being said which can get very confussing for people,this is my set along with mark rawlins,they run absolutely perfect with no hestitaion at all..
It is very intesting that you have managed to get an exta 15 hp.. where did you get this from and how do you know that you have gained this extra power without it being put on the rolling road

The "percentage things" are just a result of placing any jet and rod combo into an XL spreadsheet, the sheet then compares the jet and rod combo to the base setup. This is easy to do because all that needs to happen is that the area of the ring shaped hole that the one jet and rod combo forms just needs to be compared in terms of size area with any other combo. Of course each jet and rod combo forms two 'ring areas' one for cruise and one for the power step. Using the spreadsheet it is possible to see that there are errors in the Edelbrock charts. At first I could not believe this so I triple checked and the errors really are there. (I can't remember which combo's they got wrong because I never use the charts but basically the one's that they got wrong state that a setup will lean off the cruise for example 4% but when you do the maths it will be 8% or something like that)....Even Edelbrock quote the changes as "percentage things".

Your cruise setup is richer than the cruise setups that I have run on a 4.6 but if your car is only used on a track then I doubt that this matters to you. This does matter on a road car which may well spend 90% of the time running on this circuit. Running too rich here wastes fuel, washes the bores and dilutes the oil. Running it too lean on cruise just makes the car a pig to drive although it will not damage the engine, only lean mixtures under heavy load will cause that.

I doubt that your setup will cause any hesitation as it is a lean mixture that usually causes this.

Your power step setting is leaner than what I've used but like I said before, if that gives you the correct AFR for your engine then that's good. Most rolling roads don’t setup the cruise, some can not because the rolling road can not hold the engine against a steady load. (Some can).

The 15 BHP that I've gained was measured using my seat-of-the-pants dyno, it could be more, it could be less. I may well bung my car on a rolling road again but I'm really not too bothered (I may do this to do some ignition tests). I’ve read that a seat-of-the-pants dyno can not usually detect anything less than a 5-10% change in BHP, so for me to feel the extra BHP it must be at least 5% of 285 which is more or less 15 BHP.

I know that I've gained some BHP from two things that I did....

1. I had set the AFR at WOT to around 13.5:1, the car ran OK but the swing of the rev counter needle slowed down above 5k. One day I was messing about with my NOS setup, I fired the system with the NOS bottle turned off so the system could only dump fuel into the manifold, at the time the revs were around 5k in fourth gear, the revs immediately picked up and the needle headed for 6k and the car surged forward. (It was already going ‘quite’ fast anyway!) From that I learnt that 13.5:1 is too lean for my engine at WOT even though it is still classed as a rich mixture. I upped the secondary jets to obtain 12.5:1 AFR, the rev counter needle now swings round to 6k much quicker than it did before with the 13.5:1 AFR. since then I read in one of Vizards books that the best power is always produced between 12.8-13:1 and the power drop-off is much quicker on the lean side of the curve so my 12.5:1 might be costing me a couple of BHP at most.

2. The second thing that I did was to replace the whole ignition system. I was using a modified Lucas system, it was running 14 degrees at idle, 30 all in at 2700RPM and no vac system used at all. I replaced the system purely because I wanted to use a NOS retard system so I fitted a programmable MSD 6530. I still use the Lucas dizzy but it is locked up, I’ve replaced the pickup with an MSD one that I fitted into a new base plate that I made for the dizzy. Like I said I did not do this in order to get any more BHP but I was pleasantly surprised that it has made quite a difference to the BHP through the whole rev range. This system runs around 5 degree advance at 0-500 RPM which gives the starter motor an easy time. It then advances to 16 degrees, this figure is held until 1000 RPM. (The idle timing). The MSD then advances the timing to 28 degrees at 2700 RPM. I have recently added another ‘lump’ into the timing curve, basically I reckon that the VE must be dropping by 4800 RPM so I get the MSD to add another 2 degrees between 4800 -5000 RPM, this 30 degree figure is held until 6000 RPM. The same setup has now been fitted to Muscle Manta’s 4.6 lump, he had a huge smile on his face when he road tested his car.

The NOS retard for an 85 BHP shot has been set to 3 degrees.

I’ve also rigged up the dizzy in my pillar drill, the whole ignition system was rigged up on my bench and a strobe was used to monitor a modified rotor arm. (it had a pointer fitted to it). This allowed me to find the exact firing points for all 8 cylinders, I could see that some of the cylinders were firing 1-2 degrees wrong at the dizzy which would be 2-4 degrees at the crank.
I modified the reluctance/trigger wheel to get rid of this timing scatter. (I’ve not road tested the car since doing this mod although the tickover seems a bit more stable)

Muscle-Manta · Post by **Muscle-Manta** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:36 pm

BISH V8 wrote:My jetting & springs have been set up for track use only as power/ pickup and AFR are the most important to me. I dont believe im running to rich as its been set up on a rolling road and track so there no guess work involved,(i also have a LC1 Innovate all set up so i can see whats going on with my mixture Guage as well...various other set ups have been tried and it makes a huge difference in Pickup/hestitation..
Alot of percentage things being said which can get very confussing for people,this is my set along with mark rawlins,they run absolutely perfect with no hestitaion at all..
It is very intesting that you have managed to get an exta 15 hp.. where did you get this from and how do you know that you have gained this extra power without it being put on the rolling road

Bish, When Mark Rawlins and yourself calibrated your carb did you use the Edelbrock rod, jet and spring kit for the 1403/1404 part # 1486? If this is the case I am not surprised you arrived at the rod and jet combo you are using. There's not much else in that kit that comes anywhere near the setting required for a 4.6. The rods I use 65-47 for my 4.6 are not in the kit, however I knew they were worth a try by using "percentage things"

Using "percentage things" in my opinion takes any confusion away from calibrating carbs and makes things plain to see and simple.

After a calibration run checking cruise, acceleration and WOT the figures recorded from the LC1 can be put into an XL spread sheet. If changes are required due to the car not responding well or rich figures indicated on the LC1. By changing the rod and jet size figures on the spreadsheet you can see which way you are going in percentages leaner or richer. For example lets say you have recorded a rich mixture on cruise. Your carb is fitted with .86 thou primary jets, your rods are 67-55 thou, the cruise end of the rod being the thicker .67 thou. To achieve a leaner mixture you can then change the rod for a thicker one or the jet for a smaller one. The spreadsheet will tell you how much leaner in percentage terms any new setting you wish to try is going to be when compared to a setting previously tried.

The problem you will now encounter if using nothing but kit 1486 is there's nothing else in the kit to give you the setting you wish to try. This is why Sidecar ended up making his own rods and why I went on a search for other rods which are available from Edelbrock but not included in kit 1486. The rods Sidecar made are 69-52s he also made me a set and they worked. Someone on another forum mentioned to him that he shouldn't have to make his own rods as there is quite a range available from Edelbrock. I compared Sidecar's rod and jet combo (69-52s with .86 jets) in precentage leaner than stock (65-52 with .86 jets) terms on the spreadsheet with the complete range of rods available from Edelbrock until I found the combo that almost matched his setting which turned out to be 65-47 rods and .83 jets which comes out at 0.914 percent richer in the cruise mode and 0.256 percent leaner in the power mode -a very close match indeed, less than 1 percent either way on both cruise and power. I can now advise people who ask me about my set up as they wish to try it in a similar engine to try this off the shelf combo rather than have to tell them..... well I have some special rods which aren't available.

If your mate you mention in a previous post who has the standard heads fitted to his engine uses the "percentage things" approach above it shouldn't take him too long to get his carb calibrated.

BISH V8 · Post by **BISH V8** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:49 pm

You are correct myself and mark rawlins are both using the edelbrock rod & jet kit part No :1486 and are jettings/rods/and springs are the same.. ARE other friend, he is having alot of trouble in trying to get a good set up,he does not have the LC1 Innovate which makes it more difficult to see his AFR Readings, hes running the standard heads so i wonder if he should go down the route of the 'percentage things ''..he also has the 1486 kit but has tried various settings (All this year) and just cant stop the hestitation on the pickup..He believes he may have to go down the route with having his heads done to stage 3 unless he tries the settings you have..Are jettings just wont work on his heads..
One other point is that we cant test the settings on the road not unless we fancy a blue light in our mirror, it feels right on the road then when you put in on the track its a different animal, the settings are then tried & tested at the track not the road...
BISH

Muscle-Manta · Post by **Muscle-Manta** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:22 pm

Bish,

By hesitation on pick-up do you mean in the power/acceleration mode? If this is the case perhaps the 65-47 and .83 combo will be the answer for him as it is 6.8 percent richer in the power mode than your 67-55 and .86 setting.

If he tried your 67-55 and .86 combo and found it to hesitate on acceleration this possibly could be down to the carb running lean in the power mode. Another reason could be down to an ignition problem not related to the jetting.

You don't have to break any speed limits to test your cruise on the road for AFR. After all we are talking about small throttle opening high vacuum settings. You can save the WOT for the track!

gelmonkey · Post by **gelmonkey** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:15 pm

If I may add a few pence worth here.
I truly beleive that each individual person on this forum knows when their own particular engine set up is not quite right.
The advice given from various quarters is that born from the fact that each of us have our own particular area of expertise and intimate understanding of our chosen subject and we all can benefit from this knowledge and put it use on our own projects.
What may be good for the track and the perfect set up therein cannot really be advised upon for road use as there is no allowance for the cruise mode.
Also there is no mention from Mr Rotten if his car is being used for road or race or both.
If it is for both then an extensive set of rods,springs and jets plus lots of notes on what works best would be the order of the day.
If it is for track use only then I shall shut my head and go away.
If however the car is being used for road use then I feel that the advice from the M4 corridor is probably best adhered to.
I have taken advice from both Brock Car and Edle Manta and have found that through investigation bordering on the OCD side of things they are getting the hang of setting up these carbs to get the very best from each individual engine they are let loose on.
As I stated at the begining of my post we all know when something is not quite right with our cars and to that end I think that those who have OCD tendencies are well worth a listen to.
My own particular set up was by the OCD twins and it is really good BUT there is still more for them to do because I know that they can get it better than it is and will be calling upon them in the near future.
They know so much more than me and for that reason alone I trust their judgement and knowledge.

Going to get back in my box now

PS No monies were exchanged in the making of this post

BISH V8 · Post by **BISH V8** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:28 pm

Well u could be right with his timing, what's happened to him this past 4 months is that he has totally destroyed 3 oil pump gears at the same time destroying the dizzy gears which eventually jumped a tooth knackering his timing.The first time it happened we thought it was down to the cam float but then we fitted a plate to stop this. This helped but eventually it happened again, the same issue jumping a tooth on the pump gear. The only difference between mine and his is that I'm running a mallory he runs an after Market dizzy, we think that this is the problem. Why would it destroy the pump gear so quick..20 laps around a track and the gear is knackered.oil pressure at 50Psi so wants happening,again it looks as if he'll go down the mallory Dizzy route at more cost..
Bish

mgbv8 · Post by **mgbv8** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:18 pm

BISH V8 wrote:Well u could be right with his timing, what's happened to him this past 4 months is that he has totally destroyed 3 oil pump gears at the same time destroying the dizzy gears which eventually jumped a tooth knackering his timing.The first time it happened we thought it was down to the cam float but then we fitted a plate to stop this. This helped but eventually it happened again, the same issue jumping a tooth on the pump gear. The only difference between mine and his is that I'm running a mallory he runs an after Market dizzy, we think that this is the problem. Why would it destroy the pump gear so quick..20 laps around a track and the gear is knackered.oil pressure at 50Psi so wants happening,again it looks as if he'll go down the mallory Dizzy route at more cost..
Bish

I've only just looked at this post. I wont bother reading back!!
If you are shagging cam and dissy cogs you have too much resistance on these gears. Fitting a button to stop cam walk wont help. Its the pressure on the gears and lack of oil to these gears that is wearing them out.

I've done these gears in six 1/4 mile passes from new. Mainly due to the RV8 oil pump upgrade kit I had fitted. How did I find out the first time??

The car wouldnt start. I pulled the dissy cap and saw the rotor arm run and then stop for a second before it run again. Dissy cog worn so bad it jumped a tooth every rotation of the engine.

3 degree's of retard for a 80 shot of gas is about right. But this is nowt to do with his problem with the oil pump drive cogs.

The problem is not enough lube on the dissy drive and too much resistance on the drive due to excess oil pressure.

What oil pressure does he get at hot idle?
What oil pressure does he get hot at 3000 rpm?
What oil is he using ??

gelmonkey · Post by **gelmonkey** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:24 pm

Bish
It could well be that the cam bearings are slightly out of line on your mates engine.
Muscle Manta had a similar problem some time ago and this was tracked down to be the bearings.
Could the shaft on the damaged dizzy be checked for alignment in a pillar drill?
MSD do a specific dizzy for the RV8 but it is not cheap.
I run a Mallory dizzy motor on mine as you do and have had no problems.

P

BISH V8 · Post by **BISH V8** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:29 pm

I have quite clearely stated that my jetting & rods have been set up for track use, johnny asked me the question,i have answered..
Im presuming as hes running stage 3 heads and a fast road cam he must be doing track use. Not sure what manta's or sidecars motors are used for so cant comment..
Bish

Muscle-Manta · Post by **Muscle-Manta** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:34 pm

My 3.9 engine used to eat cam gears. As Gelmonkey says it was due to worn camshaft bearings in the block allowing the cam to rotate off centre/move sideways during rotation. It took me a very long time to find the problem. I first went down the cam button route then hooked up an oil line from the oil pump base and jetted it back into the timing cover and onto the cam drive gear. None of this worked. It was all down to worn cam bearings!

Paul.