Thermostatic switch setting

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satancom
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Thermostatic switch setting

Post by satancom »

Hey guys,

I have a pretty standard tune 3.5 Rover V8 on SU's in my series land rover. It has an 82 degree stat and a brand new four core radiator. I am installing a thermostatic switch to control the 15" electric fan on the outside of the radiator (push).

The switch I have has two settings
  • on at 88 off at 83
    on at 92 off at 87
It does probably 60/40 on/off road. Also the directions tell me to install in the bottom hose. I was planning the top hose, any comments on the best place to install it?

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Post by ChrisJC »

I would go for the cooler one, less thermal stress (or more headroom), at the slight expense of worse fuel economy.

As for location, the current thinking does seem to be bottom hose for temp sensor and thermostat, so the engine has a good supply of cool water.

You can imagine that with a top mounted sensor, the radiator is full of cold water, but the fan runs pointlessly because the top hose has a low flow of hot water in it.

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Post by satancom »

Bottom hose lower setting it is then :)

CHeers
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Post by Quagmire »

I would go with bottom hose too.

I put mine in the top as my hose is in two pieces anyway and to get it to run normally i have to limit it to using the higher range only. This seems to be fine as the temp gauge sits where it used to when i was using Kenlowe switch- needle dead in the middle of the gauge.
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Post by ramon alban »

Logically, It seems to me the correct place for the fan control switch should be as close as possible to both:

a) the engine thermostat, and b) the instrument temp gauge sensor.

Why so? Well for several reasons: Look at it from the point of view of fitting the fan stat in the bottom hose?

# If the radiator is good and efficient as your 4 core unit should be, then the output temperature out at the top hose could be quite high and get really well cooled before the fan ever cuts in at its preset temp setting.

# When the fan eventually cuts in, it will depend upon not only the efficiency of the radiator but also the ambient temperature and the speed of the vehicle - not the output temperature of the engine. That has got to be risky. :cry:

# If the ambient temperature was very high, the engine could be practically boiling before the temperature in the bottom hose was high enough (due to the efficient rad) before the cooling fan is engaged. Steam and over-pressurisation would then be on the cards.

# The temperature at the instrument gauge sender would never be stable, behaving like a fiddlers elbow, scaring the living daylights out of the driver with over-erratic temp readings. :shock:

# Equally the thermostat would be pretty much continually open (especially the 82 degree - low temperature unit) providing no meaningful stability over the engine temperature because the system output temperature would generally be above the stat closing point and the fan stat would be wholly dependent upon the normally much cooler bottom hose.

# Lastly the abilty of the system to control the output temperature when under heavy load or in slow traffic would be impaired, subject to the inevitable thermal delay whilst the hot water makes its way thro the rad before triggering the cooling fan.

Alternatively, mounting the cooling fan stat in the hottest part of the system (top hose) in close proximity to the engine stat and the gauge sender, makes much more sense and takes care of all the system problems outlined above.

Finally, although its a preferential issue, I personally think the RV8 functions more efficiently in the 90 to 95 degree range than it does in the
85 to 90 degree range, making the 88 degree stat a better choice for temperate climates.

My reason for this conclusion comes from running Efi V8's for 17 years and learning from the Rover Efi tech training manual that the optimum temperature for the CTS is around 95 degrees C. when the ECU delivers its most efficient (power and economy) mixture.
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Post by ChrisJC »

Not convinced by Ramons arguments I'm afraid (not that I am doubting his intellect or care!)

The thermostat and engine temp sensor need to be a good indication of engine temp (this I agree with). It doesn't matter where they are, as long as they reflect engine temp. On the older RV8's, the 'stat is in the inlet manifold, and it has the heater bypass circuit flowing right past it, so it will open at the right time.
On the P38 engines, the thermostat is in the bottom hose, however, the thermostat bypass still flows into the housing and back out, so the stat knows what temp the engine is.

The radiator however is simply to provide a ready source of cool water for when the thermostat requests it. Setting the fan on the temperature of the water going into the radiator is ridiculous, surely you want it on the water coming out (i.e. bottom hose). Then, if the water is too hot, the fan comes on to provide additional cooling.

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Post by Quagmire »

Ah the joy of forums- everyone has the right to disagree! :shock:

I think by placing the switch in the bottom hose i will get the same operation as i do now- however i will be able to use the lower range of the switch to trigger the fan, which would be a bonus.

That will then leave the upper range available to trigger the high speed operation of the fan as required. I have a switch on the dash that enables me to do this manually too if i so desire.

I agree that the top hose will provide a more instant reading of the water temp, but have to agree with Chris in that the fan is only needed to cool the water in the rad when the rad itself is not coping. The thermostat is the Primary device that decides whether the engine is hot or not. I also don't really believe that the delay in the temp change when being read from the bottom hose would be that significant. The water is surely moving fairly quickly, although i have to confess to not knowing the flow rate.

Its all a question of switching temps- as the switch provided with the x-fan kit triggers at the temps shown in Satancom's post and these temps are recommended for the bottom hose. I could use the top hose with no problems just by using a different switch with higher values.

Re-reading Ramon's post i think that he is concerned with the time it would take to trigger the fan. I believe he is basically saying (please correct me if i am wrong) that by having the switch in the top hose and using a switch of the correct range, you could effectively "pre-empt" the situation when the rad may not deal with the heat sufficiently, rather than reacting to it when it actually happens.

I will let you know what happens when i move my switch to the bottom hose!

:D
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Post by satancom »

Thanks for the great explanations and balanced views guys. Unfortunately it has probably made the decision more confusing :)

It is indeed the x-fan kit I have. I am going to drain all of the coolant out on the weekend and take a look at my options. The top hose needs replacing anyway as its currently a universal springy type which won't be helping coolant flow. I have a new pipe to replace it which is the correct shape, I bought it to fit the x-fan kit.

Lets see if I understand this then. If I put the switch in the bottom hose then only when water warmer than 88 degrees is flowing into the engine will the fan come on bringing the temp down to 83. This means that the minimum temp going into the engine will be 83 degress and the max will be 88 degrees. This should mean the stat stays open and the temp doesn't fluctuate to wildly.

If I put it in the top hose and use the warmer setting then the fan will come on when water warmer than 92 degrees is flowing out of the engine into the rad meaning the warmest flowing into the engine may be around 92, but if the engines working hard it could get quite a bit warmer before the water in the rad is cooled down and circulated into the engine.

Ow my Brain hurts and I haven't really concluded much.

Perhaps I will just find the easiest place to fit it and go from there? Ultimately any location could be overcome by a different temp switch I guess?
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Post by V8Smudge »

My SIIA V8 uses a 110 V8 radiator, with the bottom hose connection modified to clear the steering relay (I'm using a 90/110 front end), and a Citroen BX fan switch is mounted in the top hose running a pair of Citroen AX GT cooling fans behind the radiator, backed up by a manually operated Saxo VTR cooling fan in front of the radiator. I've never had any issues with the cooling system, the fan's rarely run when in traffic on the road, and only for 20-30 second bursts when working hard off-road, and the capilllary coolant temp gauge stays rock steady at 88 degrees centigrade once warmed up. Until I read this thread I was of the opinion that the fan switch should always be mounted in the top hose or the upper half of the radiator, that's coming from 14 years motor trade experience, 10 years of which was as a Citroen Consultant Technician, hence the Citroen components in my cooling system :wink: ! Although I'm always open to advice and opinions :D !
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Post by ramon alban »

Quagmire wrote:Ah the joy of forums- everyone has the right to disagree!
And hopefully fully explore the reasons behind some of the answers. We've all seen answers/statements based upon "What I did", sometimes upon "What I read" and other times upon "My mate did this".

On this subject, there seems to have been a change of standard practice, regarding fan switch placement, whereas in days gone by, the typical fan fitting notes would say "Fit the fan stat under the "Top Hose to Radiator" joint".

Now it seems to be different, so there is clearly a historical change in viewpoint regarding the science involved.

My first post was intended to stimulate some discussion. As it happens I never had an RV8 with a Kenlowe type electric fan or even fitted one.

BUT

On my Twin Plenum SD1 Vitesse the factory fitted Twin AirCon cooling fans are also used to boost radiator cooling when the engine overheats (whether or not aircon is engaged) and guess what -

The Fan Stat switch is mounted in the radiator adjacent to the top hose.

Image

Discuss?

There is yet another consideration.

All RV8 viscous fan units sense the temperature immediately behind the dead centre of the radiator.

Is this, I wonder, trying to tell us to fit a fan stat switch somewhere similar?
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Post by Quagmire »

So forgetting the viscous fan for a mo, and concentrating on the water temps in hoses etc...

I think we can all agree then that using the appropriate switch for the chosen location will allow the fan to come on at the right temp to keep the engine cool.

This leaves the question on what kind of lag you might see between measuring top hose vs bottom hose temps, and hence how much movement you will see on the gauge.

All i know about my rad is that when i pointed an infrared thermometer at it when first installed and checking temps, is that it seems to drop temp by around 15-20deg C.

What would be interesting would be to have a temp sender in both top and bottom hoses and to log the temps that they see. You could then plot that and see any lag nice and clearly!
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Post by ChrisJC »

I suspect in practice it doesn't matter that much as there seem to be so many variations! Given that the two extremes work, anywhere in between ought to work too.

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Post by satancom »

ramon alban wrote:
Quagmire wrote: All RV8 viscous fan units sense the temperature immediately behind the dead centre of the radiator.

Is this, I wonder, trying to tell us to fit a fan stat switch somewhere similar?
I would guess the viscous fans tempreture sensing in the middle of the rad is purely because the fan has to sit centrally in the radiator to provide maximum cooling, and the viscous unit logically has to sit in the centre of the fan.

On a side not e I would have a viscous fan if there was room :) I don't like electric ones.

I will strip the bot hoses off ant take a look on the weekend. I think its going to end up in the top hose simply due to space. The top hose is around 500mm compared to the short bottom hose. Lots of room to play with!
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Post by Ian Anderson »

My 2c worth

In your cooling system you have about 6 litres of coolant
(The GT40 has 13 litres but the engine is in the boot!)

Your waterpump will pump how many litres per minute? Say for arguement 200 so the coolant flow at fully open thermostat will circulate the whole system every 2 seconds

At idle the pump will be a lot less efficient so even if you allow a 10 fold decrease in the coolant flow you will circulate it all in 20 seconds.

So itshould not make any real difference where you check the temperature - at that point of the circuit you would expect say (Top hose 90 degrees, bottom hose 60 degrees, at the heads outlet 95 degrees etc.)
So long as the point you are checking remains the same you should always get the same result.

That said fitting the fan switch in the radiator inlet hose may cause the fans to kick in slightly earlier than the radiator outlet hose

Viscous fan - great idea as it will also circulate air past the block when in a traffic jam / mud plugging situation - aircon fans - yes additional airflow - hell I even fitted a pair of blowers in the rear of the GT40 to move air around the block when the traffic stops!

How much airflow do you need through a good radiator to cool a V8 at idle / slow speed? I'd say no less than about 1100cfm. Bur that will only hold the temp and not allow it to drop - to drop the temp you need 1400cfm plus

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Post by satancom »

One more question then I promise :oops:

My airbleed between the carbs is currently blocked off as I have no port on the new rad to fit it.

If I was to fit the x-fan kit in the top hose, would it be suitible to tap the fan switch housing to also accept a small port for the air bleed. The engineering shop in work can do all the machining, I just don't want ti to cause the fans to cycle. In theory this should only ever be the same temp as the water in the top hose anyhow once the stat opens. Is this correct?

Wow this is a lot more complicated than I thought!
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