Legalities regarding fuel tank / filler placement

chodjinn · Post by **chodjinn** » Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:51 pm

I was just wondering if anyone knew the legalities regarding the placement of fuel tank / fuel filler in relation to the cabin of the car?

I have an MGB, which has the fuel filler cap on the offside rear of the boot, which goes to a short pipe connecting to the fuel tank bolted to the bottom of the boot.

There is a 'false floor' in all MGB GTs which covers all this.

Sebring replicas have an Aston-style fuel filler on the offside C-pillar, with a tube connecting to the existing tank connection.

Now, I don't want to do it like that as it looks messy .... and I've removed the false floor already due to pending roll cage and plan on welding the back panel up.

I was just hoping someone could give me some advice before I continue, as I want the car to remain road legal. Can I have the filler cap inside the car or does there need to be some kid of barrier/firewall between the tank and cabin?

JSF55 · Post by **JSF55** » Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:12 pm

Mine's in the boot of the pop, but it gets smelly in there sometimes

i have no solid firewall between the rear seat and boot area, i'm unaware of any legality's covering it for mot
http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_720.htm
But i would be more concerned for competion requirements ?

richardpope50 · Post by **richardpope50** » Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:25 pm

I suggest you look at the VOSA IVA (Individual Vehicle Approval) manual since that gives all the current requirements for all cars that need to be road legal. Whilst quite large, it is available on-line so just download it..

It's the bible for anyone building a kit car.

Ian Anderson · Post by **Ian Anderson** » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:33 pm

No it would not be legal.

But would your MOT man actually fail you on it? I suppose that would be the question.

If the car ever requires an IVATest the original system would fail!

Not allowed to have any part of the fuel system in the cabin area of the car. It has tqo be isolated and not nitride in any way - even the filling tube! So on the B you would have to have atank mounted under slung and create a bulkhead or second skin around the filler pipe where it intrudes into the cockpit area

Try and do that on a GT40 with 2 tanks and see the added complexity. Yes it can be done but expensive

Ian

stevieturbo · Post by **stevieturbo** » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:45 pm

Legal...this one's hard to say.

MK2 Escorts of old had their tank in the boot, the filler was external, but had only the seat or a bit of wood as a bulkhead.

But clearly it makes sense to fit a bulkhead of some description. A thin sheet of aluminium doesnt cost much, so just fit one and seal off the cabin as best you can.

Ian Anderson · Post by **Ian Anderson** » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:22 pm

stevieturbo wrote:Legal...this one's hard to say.

MK2 Escorts of old had their tank in the boot, the filler was external, but had only the seat or a bit of wood as a bulkhead.

But clearly it makes sense to fit a bulkhead of some description. A thin sheet of aluminium doesnt cost much, so just fit one and seal off the cabin as best you can.

But when the Mk2 was made there was no IVA
If you now do major mods on one that will require it to go through the IVA you have to meet all the IVA requirements

It is bureaucracy gone mad!

Ian

stevieturbo · Post by **stevieturbo** » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:28 pm

Ian Anderson wrote:
It is bureaucracy gone mad!

Ian

That's an understatement.

But sealing off a petrol tank from the passenger compartment is just common sense.

chodjinn · Post by **chodjinn** » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:22 pm

stevieturbo wrote:
Ian Anderson wrote:
It is bureaucracy gone mad!

Ian
That's an understatement.

But sealing off a petrol tank from the passenger compartment is just common sense.

Agreed. Just not sure how to do it at the moment, might have to build a small enclosure or something.

I'm aiming to try and avoid an SVA/IVA test. I found this on another forum;

Unmodified bodyshell or chassis = 5 points
Engine = 1 point
Transmision = 2 points
BOTH axles = 2 points
Suspension = 2 points
Steering = 2 points
If you can score 8 points from the original car, then you get to keep the original reg no. 'Repaired' counts as 'unmodified'.

Kinda worried about the roll cage now ...?

Found this pic on google. It's a roadster shell so has the firewall, but the cell is low enough to build a small frame round with and alloy cover. Fuel pump & gubbins would be under the car by the battery box.

stevieturbo · Post by **stevieturbo** » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:26 pm

If the car is on the road at present, or has a current V5, the details on the V5 are correct with regards to engine size/number etc.

Then unless someone forces you to undertake an IVA, keep driving away.

If they force you to undertake an IVA, kiss your car goodbye, as for most it will probably be a total ballache to make it pass, if it is even possible.

richardpope50 · Post by **richardpope50** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:36 am

chodjinn wrote:If you can score 8 points from the original car, then you get to keep the original reg no. 'Repaired' counts as 'unmodified'.

That's not actually correct (any more). You actually keep an age related plate and you no longer keep your reg number. This will allow you to change the plate to a personalised plate. If you do not get the points, you get a Q plate and cannot change the plate. There are also difference with a Q plate in that you cannot identify the age of the car and so special rules apply for emissions, etc..

But that's all to do with registration after an IVA test. If you car is already registered and you have not modified it (chassis, etc, not engine) from the original manufacturer's spec then you need an IVA test and as said above, it will not pass for a host of reasons.

chodjinn · Post by **chodjinn** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:17 pm

richardpope50 wrote:
chodjinn wrote:If you can score 8 points from the original car, then you get to keep the original reg no. 'Repaired' counts as 'unmodified'.
That's not actually correct (any more). You actually keep an age related plate and you no longer keep your reg number. This will allow you to change the plate to a personalised plate. If you do not get the points, you get a Q plate and cannot change the plate. There are also difference with a Q plate in that you cannot identify the age of the car and so special rules apply for emissions, etc..

But that's all to do with registration after an IVA test. If you car is already registered and you have not modified it (chassis, etc, not engine) from the original manufacturer's spec then you need an IVA test and as said above, it will not pass for a host of reasons.

I'm sorry I didn't understand any of that. You said you keep an age related plate (what does that mean anyway?), but then you say if the points are not made you get a Q plate which can't be changed?

And the second bit doesn't make sense either, why would anyone need an IVA test if it's not been modified from the original spec?! You'd just MOT it like any other normal car.

Post by **scudderfish** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:59 pm

Basically, if you have structurally changed the monocoque (widened the tunnel, cut bits out to clear manifolds/roll cage), then it will need an IVA test to be legally on the road. It will be a test of the whole car, not just the bits you've changed so all the rules governing lights, mirrors, projections etc will apply. If you don't and you have an accident it can be a world of trouble.

chodjinn · Post by **chodjinn** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:10 pm

scudderfish wrote:Basically, if you have structurally changed the monocoque (widened the tunnel, cut bits out to clear manifolds/roll cage), then it will need an IVA test to be legally on the road. It will be a test of the whole car, not just the bits you've changed so all the rules governing lights, mirrors, projections etc will apply. If you don't and you have an accident it can be a world of trouble.

Ok so what if I have a completely unmodified monocoque with a roll cage welded on? That's not a direct modification of the monocoque surely.

If the monocoque was changed, in any way, and it passed IVA, do you keep the original reg, or get a new one?

I've spent the last hour or so reading up on this and it still is not clear, and the DVLA lines are permanently busy!

Post by **scudderfish** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:03 pm

If you haven't cut anything or done anything that could weaken it then you're probably in the clear, but I'm not a lawyer

chodjinn · Post by **chodjinn** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:30 pm

scudderfish wrote:If you haven't cut anything or done anything that could weaken it then you're probably in the clear, but I'm not a lawyer

Lol thanks, finally spoke to the DVLA. With respect to the fuel tank they are not specific, so I guess it would depend on the MOT place/person, but for safety sake the tanks is going to have to be separate from the cabin in some way.