Triumphs with rover v8s, both with running issues

triumphv8s · Post by **triumphv8s** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:14 pm

Hi, Ive just joined the forum and hope it will give me some answers to fixing my triumphs, Firstly I ve got a stag with a sd1 v8 unit in it with extractor manifolds, offenhauser inlet with edelbrock 500 cfm carb and a Mallory distrubutor but the engine internally is standard, this has always run rich so the throttle always has to be down which was great fun going to le mans last year, but now it appears to have an main bearing rumble and still overfuelling , so I was looking to sort the crank / bearing problem out and possibly put a cam in it, but can any one recommend a tuning company in north kent to re jet an edelbrock carb.
Secondly, I have a triumph tr7 v8 Which I believe to be a Grinnall conversion, which has widened steel arches and boxed out sills and a few other body mods, the engine in this is originally from a range rover 1987 with the flapper type efi this also has extractor manifolds, but after that I dont know any more about the engine, Its now got its mot and doesnt want to run very well, previous to this it would be quite happy sideways in the first three gears and a couple of us think that the engine has had some reworkings inside as it revs and sounds more like a tvr engine, so much so I have brought an lsd axle to go on back of it, but now at the moment there seems no need for it at all.
I have checked for air leaks and cleaned out the plenium chamber and refixed a couple of the trumpets back in place as they were rattling around, but still to no advances in getting it running better.
I am quite happy tinkering and building engine etc, but tuning is really my thing especially injections, so again are there any good mechanics who are familar with these system who would be happy to come and have a look Many Thanks Matt

softdash3.9 · Post by **softdash3.9** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:22 pm

Welcome, you've probably come to the right place

Many helpful people here

Flapper EFi. Ramon's your man

ramon alban · Post by **ramon alban** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:49 pm

triumphv8s wrote:I have a triumph tr7 v8 ---- originally from a range rover 1987 with the flapper type efi ---- doesn't want to run very well,

I have checked for air leaks and cleaned out the plenum chamber and refixed a couple of the trumpets ---- but still to no advances in getting it running better

Hello Matt, hopefully someone will be near you to help out, but if not, "Doesn't run very well" is a bit thin on clues

so:

What have you set the ignition timing to?

What are the signs/symptoms during warm-up?

Ditto when running hot?

What is the condition of the spark plugs (one from each bank) after a hot run?

Any petrol smell in engine bay or in the exhaust fumes?

Sooty deposits on tail pipe?

Going forward, it's pretty much impossible to survive with an Efi Flapper without some knowledge, so I urge you to gain as much reading material as is available and study it. I promise, it is not rocket science. Virtually everything you could need is available from this archive:

http://www.vintagemodelairplane.com/pag ... nts01.html

It will help you identify component locations, their purpose, function and test processes with simple workshop tools plus a multi-meter.

For what it's worth, over 80% of Efi Flapper faults are due to air leaks and Efi loom/connector problems, so if you are tempted to buy and replace components randomly such a plan has very low chance of success.

However, having good second/hand working spares available is always a bonus, so its worth keeping a weather eye open for such components, that you will be reading about.

If/when you are ready to go ahead this 15 point health check will help identify potential problems

http://www.vintagemodelairplane.com/pag ... wer01.html

triumphv8s · Post by **triumphv8s** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:07 pm

Hi Ramon, Thanks for input I have read quite a few of your tips and have put the more simple ones into practice, When I brought the car it seemed to run fine and it did stand for a couple of months ,but being started regularly, then when I stared to get on with fixing it it started to run rough, so I replaced with fresh fuel,but it still the same.
It turns over quite slowly as though it could have High compression, but starts after a couple of seconds. It runs ok for a couple of minutes then seem to start idling eratically between 600-1300 revs and smells of petrol from the exhaust. Could it be that the choke is coming off,or a temp sensor is at fault?
After this I replaced the distrubutor cap and rotor as they look a bit worse for wear. It already had new ngk plugs and champion leads on it so I thought these should be ok, Ive cleaned out the plenium chamber and a couple of the trumpets where out of position, so I have fitted them back and cleaned the chamber out, I have set the throttle position, but it is still the same.It appears to me that it probably is a electrical connection fault as it really seems as though something has broken down with time, unless the coil needs replacing.
yet a couple of weeks ago I had replaced some bad crimped connections with new, and then started it up, it still ran lumpy ,then about 15 minutes later it seems to idle nicely again, so I thought i had solved it, then next time it was stared it was rough again
It drives ok when the pedal is down, but it is my fear that it is going to stall and not start again
Also the spark plugs seemed maybe to be a little bit on the lean side, and should this engine have a stepper valve on it
So now I will carry on down your list Many thanks Matt

ramon alban · Post by **ramon alban** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:05 pm

There are some different symptoms here-in Matt, but possibly pointing towards the the same fault condition.

# Generally best to work through a program of checks as suggested and see what turns up. Scatter-gun component replacement rarely works.

# And what ever you have done or replaced it still comes back running rough - see the red bits below.

# It would seem that you do not have an ignition problem tho'.

# There is a suggestion of rich mixture with the fuel smelly exhaust but if that is only at start-up, it not uncommon

# Then because it stalls so readily and the spark plugs are NOT showing rich running, then an unstable weak mixture suggests a ROGUE air leak into the plenum chamber.

# Perhaps not too big a leak either, because when you put the hammer down it runs OK - the extra rich mixture of acceleration and full load overcoming the rogue air leak, perhaps.

# And the business of running "ok for a couple of minutes then seems to start idling erratically" says that it likes the 'temp-sensor induced', rich start up mixture but dislikes the leaning out as the engine warms up. Another deffo sign of an air leak into the plenum chamber.

triumphv8s wrote: it did stand for a couple of months ,but being started regularly, then when I started to get on with fixing it it started to run rough,

It turns over quite slowly as though it could have High compression, but starts after a couple of seconds.

It runs ok for a couple of minutes then

Seem to start idling erratically

and smells of petrol from the exhaust.

replaced the distrubutor cap and rotor as they look a bit worse for wear. It already had new ngk plugs and champion leads on it so I thought these should be ok,

cleaned the chamber out ----- set the throttle position,

but it is still the same

replaced some bad crimped connections with new, and then started it up,

it still ran lumpy

then about 15 minutes later it seems to idle nicely again, so I thought i had solved it,

then next time it was stared it was rough again

It drives ok when the pedal is down,

but it is my fear that it is going to stall and not start again

Also the spark plugs seemed maybe to be a little bit on the lean side

should this engine have a stepper valve on it

So, apart from going thro the test program, what stands out is a probable Rogue air leak causing a low torque, unstable weak mixture, giving the impression it could stall from idle at any time.

Testing for that condition is quite easy as you will have read.

Two more things:

# A good battery with good connections and a good starter motor whizzes up an RV8 like a turbo, so you have to check out heavy duty connections, battery, solenoid and starter motor - in that order.

# The regular flapper system does not have a stepper motor.

triumphv8s · Post by **triumphv8s** » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:21 pm

Thanks Ramon,
I had my local classic car garage look at it for me, and it appears they found the problem, and rectified it, and charged me for it, but I really wanted it going again, It seems you are right the rogue air leak, but it appears to be leaking down the idle speed screw as the mechanic only put one new jubilee clip on and ptfe tape around the top of the screw and they said the test drove it and had it idling for and hour and it was fine, I took it out for a half hour spin (and it did ,spin in the rain) and all seemed good ,but later on I moved the car and it was erattic again.
So I spoke to the mechanic again and he said that was all he had done(so I wondered to myself, why such a high price???).
I have now taken the plenum off again and completely cleaned it all again, but noticed the air idle speed screw,is slightly loose in the thread and has a slot in the top for a flat head screw driver,and Im suspecting this is not right, Before I took it apart, I did try to seal the hole for the idle screw ,but this made no difference.
So I might be looking to rethread the idle screw thread and replace the screw.(Is there a seal on top of the idle screw itself?, and should it be a allen bolt head?)Or the other option will be to look for a good condition plenum chamber top part. I have now cleaned and greased all the engine earths, but not alternator yet, and I will put chamber back on with ptfe again and see how it is,
I dont think I will be going back to my mechanic, unless it is for my money back or to fix it properly, But I think in this day and age ,if you want it doing properly you have to do it yourself. Many thanks for your help and I will let you know how I get on, or to see if you know any one with a plenum chamber top . Matt

ramon alban · Post by **ramon alban** » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:18 pm

Matt, comments in red:

triumphv8s wrote:it appears to be leaking down the idle speed screw as the mechanic only put one new jubilee clip on and ptfe tape around the top of the screw. --- the air idle speed screw s slightly loose in the thread

As a simple elimination of the loose thread as a possible cause, clean the top and put some sticky tape over it to seal it. If it makes no difference its not a problem.

and has a slot in the top for a flat head screw driver,and Im suspecting this is not right,

The slot headed screw you describe is correct

So I might be looking to rethread the idle screw thread and replace the screw. (Is there a seal on top of the idle screw itself?, and should it be a allen bolt head?)

No seal and no allen head.

Can you control the idle speed with the idle speed control screw?

If not, the gallery is blocked and needs cleaning, it can only be done with the chamber removed using a piece of stiff wire into the hole from rear of the gallery, which is also invisible.

If it is blocked then so, possibly, might be the breather gallery too on the opposite side of the tunnel.

Referring back to the likely-hood of an undetected air leak, the only way to eliminate all possibilities is to study and perform the dynamic leak detection process described in the PGF available from here.

http://www.vintagemodelairplane.com/pag ... num01.html

Also check for complete integrity of the rocker cover and inlet manifold gaskets, as a breached gasket will upset the efi system.

A simple test for this is to remove the oil filler cap whilst the engine is idling and if it makes little or no difference to the idling, you have a rocker or inlet manifold gasket leak.

triumphv8s · Post by **triumphv8s** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:03 pm

Hi Ramon, thanks for all your help,
I have taken the plenum off again and cleaned all the galleries out, then refitted, and cleaned up all the electrical connections easily accessible, but this made no difference, so disconnected all the plenum pipes as described in your guide, but still the same with an erratic idle,
So tried wd40 on the joints which still made no difference, so was still trying to determine whether it could be electrical, but then decided to spray chamber, inlet and injector seals and pipework with a spray grease, and after a couple of minutes the car idled smooth and as it should and tried it a couple more times later on and it has remained the same so I am presuming that there is a air leak somewhere and think the next step is just to renew the gaskets from the valley gasket upwards including all the injector seals. are there any tricks I should be aware of when doing this job Many thanks Matt

ramon alban · Post by **ramon alban** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:50 pm

triumphv8s wrote: then decided to spray chamber, inlet and injector seals and pipework with a spray grease, and after a couple of minutes the car idled smooth and as it should and tried it a couple more times later on and it has remained the same so I am presuming that there is a air leak somewhere and think the next step is just to renew the gaskets from the valley gasket upwards including all the injector seals. are there any tricks I should be aware of when doing this job

That's a novel test, Matt, new to me, anyway!

Spray grease goes quite thick after the solvent has evaporated - such as I use on my push-bike chains, it does not fly off with the rotation forces? Not sure about heat tho'?

So you sealed some gaps and - sure - renewing every gasket/seal from the inlet manifold upwards is gonna be the long term solution because the grease will soon melt out when the engine gets really hot.

I have come across another suggestion - yonks ago - someone advised using a spray lacquer around those inaccessible joints when the engine is running and hot, the fluid gets sucked in, solvent evaporates and the leak is sealed with the lacquer.

When done - wipe off the excess.

You deffo proved its an air leak methinks?

Happy New Year!

triumphv8s · Post by **triumphv8s** » Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:47 pm

Tried again today, and it ran rough again so sprayed some more grease around injectors and this seemed to cure it, so maybe it may just be injector seals, could that sound right? I was looking to buy a head gasket set including injector seals and wondered whether this one was right(item no 120367509541) as I think I will replace from the valley gasket upwards and will there be anything else I will need that I should Know about? Many thanks Matt

ramon alban · Post by **ramon alban** » Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:54 pm

triumphv8s wrote:wondered whether this one was right(item no 120367509541) as I think I will replace from the valley gasket upwards and will there be anything else I will need that I should Know about? Many thanks Matt

HEAD GASKET SET FOR ROVER 3.5 EFi INJECTION V8 ENGINES

SUITABLE FOR ALL 3.5EFi (Injection) ENGINES FITTED IN A HOST OF KIT CARS BUT MOST COMMONLY IN :

RANGE ROVER, LANDROVER DISCOVERY, SD1, MORGAN, TVR

DISCOVERY 3.5EFi 3528cc 1990-94

RANGE ROVER 3.5EFi 3528cc 1984-89

MORGAN PLUS 8 3.5 inj 3528cc 1984-90

ROVER SD1 3.5EFi 3528cc 1982-86

CONTENTS 2 TIN PLATE HEAD GASKETS,2 CORK ROCKER GASKETS,8 EX MAN GASKET,1 TIN PLATE IN MAN HEAT SHIELD PLUS SEALS,8 STEM SEALS,8 LARGE SQUARE SECTION INJ SEALS,8 SMALL SQUARE SECT INJECTOR SEALS,16 ROUND SECT INJECTOR SEALS PLUS VARIOUS OTHER SMALL GASKETS AND WASHERS.

That seems to be the right stuff!

or if its just one injector

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lucas-Injecto ... 191wt_1135

Its a long time since I did a top end, but a tube of Blue Hylomar and some silicon sealant. methinks?

triumphv8s · Post by **triumphv8s** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:54 pm

Hi Ramon , its taken a while to get around to stripping and cleaning and refitting all the gaskets and sealing everything up and guess what, it still seems to be the same, maybe a little better so some more testing is in order, I have resolved the slow starter motor as I inspected it and 2 of the 4 brushes had virtuallly disintigrated, and on a positive note although it still not running right, the lsd is of being shimmed up in the axle so that is another little job being done, but if I start struggling for time, would you Know anyone around the sevenoaks area who would have a look at it without charging the earth? many Thanls Matt

ramon alban · Post by **ramon alban** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:25 pm

Hello Matt, Even if doing those jobs does not totally fix the problem you know that the injector seals cant be a problem now.

Using plus-gas or WD40 may give you a better indication of the actual location of an air leak thereabouts, because they dont seal the hole, just hear it sucking or notice a change in idle rpm.

Dont overlook the suggestion in my november 17 post.

ie

Referring back to the likely-hood of an undetected air leak, the only way to eliminate all possibilities is to study and perform the dynamic leak detection process described in the PDF available from here.

http://www.vintagemodelairplane.com/pag ... num01.html

Also check for complete integrity of the rocker cover and inlet manifold gaskets, as a breached gasket will upset the efi system.

A simple test for this is to remove the oil filler cap whilst the engine is idling and if it makes little or no difference to the idling, you have a rocker or inlet manifold gasket leak.

Dunno about specialists local to you, I would think someone might know, but these days cultivating your own expertise is probably the only way to avoid being ripped off.

Good Luck