Newb supercharger question

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richb77
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Newb supercharger question

Post by richb77 »

Hi all,

I'm new to all of this so please go gently :)

I am rebuilding a Rover 3.5 V8. Its an ex police (May make some difference) P6 lump with twin SU's.

Currently its in my S2a land rover but is going to be rebuilt and transplanted into (hopefully) a defender off roader.

My main desire is Torque low down hence a supercharger not turbo.

The P6 i believe is higher compresion and BHP than normal land/range rover engines anyhow. The Series shifts with it in :)

Anyhow. I fancied an Eaton M90 on the top as these are failry cheap to buy but i dont know what else is needed.

Such as:

Modified or new inlet manifold?
Fueling...I'd like to keep carb(s) possibly a Holley 4 barrell?

Am i on the right tacks or not? I dont much fancy Efi unless its a must.

maybe just a tuned rebuild will suffice (although i have a huge hankering to have a "supercharged" decal on the back :)

Cheers for any advice



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Post by gelmonkey »

Hello
Welcome to the forum, its a good place to start for advice.
Whilst I know very little about supercharging I would think that you would be better off with a later block as these are stronger with thicker webs between the cam valley and there are webs in the timing cover area.
I do know that you will need a modified inlet fanimold as the huffer just won't bolt on (BOO HISS)
The P6 does run a higher CR which I think is 10.5.1.
Topcat production (Tom) has built a supercharged RV8 and will give good advice for sure.
Don't worry about asking what you might think is a stupid question because there is always someone who will help you.
Not much help I'm sure but at least it's a start for you.
Cheers
Paul

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topcatcustom
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Post by topcatcustom »

With an Eaton you should be going for a blow through set up or injection as it is debatable whether the seals in them are fuel proof or not. Suck through options are limited to big old GMC or Wade blowers that will stick out the bonnet by at least a foot, or new and very expensive screw superchargers that are more efficient- but you pay for it.

Your high compression P6 lump is not ideal as you really want to be lowering compression, a lot of blown V8's run anywhere from 6 or 7:1, normally up to about 8.5:1 (Mike or Elliot feel free to correct me with some example you have seen!!!) and you preferably want to run a blower cam, though standard one will probably be ok.

There is also the ignition to sort out as you need to retard the ignition relative to boost, MSD make a module that does this for a couple of hundred pounds or more with the low £ per $.

Basically as I have found, it looks easy but there is a lot more to think about! Oh, you also need to ARP stud the top and bottom end, and use double valve springs (not the old P6 double ones) which also require new retainers. Anti pump lifters are also a must as you can't risk having an inlet valve held open as if you get a backfire with a blower- it aint good!

P6 heads also have smaller valves, you are better off with early Range Rover heads like mine (unless you can afford worked ones!) as they have slightly bigger valves and bigger combustion chambers than the later ones. Composite head gaskets will help lower the CR.

Think thats about it.....
TC

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Post by gelmonkey »

Told you!!!!!

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Post by topcatcustom »

You beat me Paul :lol:

Oh I also forgot- there is a big chance you will break your P6 pistons on boost, forged are the only way to go for big boost, but as I'm sure you won't be thinking of going much over 6/7psi you may get away with standard pistons (from as late a model as you can).

I have a 4.0 with matching pistons for the main 2 reasons- later pistons should be slightly stronger, and it has a 4 bolt bottom end. The down side is I risk having a liner slip or crack as I chose the most prone to it block made by Rover!!! Hoping to lower the chance of having problems by running a 75degree stat!
TC

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Post by gelmonkey »

Told you again :lol: :lol:

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Post by bigaldart »

OK, start at our beginning, which was a competition altered, actually an old Fuel altered chassis not very light after a new roll cage was fitted, probably about 1900-2000 lbs, with a stock scrapyard P6 engine with a 4-71 GMC blower, 650 Holley carb it ran a best of 11.90 @ 112 or so. At the time this was not too bad. The inlet had a spring loaded pressure relief plate and at the top end the lifters pumped and it popped and banged and just acted like a rev limiter. Peak revs were around 5,200 to 5,500. The blower was run at 28% underdrive. Even now with the dragster we only run 11% under but cylinder and manifold pressures are very much higher. Pistons and rods and everything else needs to be considered now. If it lifts the relief panel now it needs new springs. However there is no damage to the blower or engine at this stage. Of course it is now 3-400 lbs lighter but does run 9.45 @140.

To sum up a lightly blown P6 motor, keeping the boost to 4-6lbs will really open your eyes and will be comparable to a well uprated 4.6. It is perfectly doable and very forgiving if you don't get greedy on boost or timing.

Any questions ask away

Alan

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Post by kiwicar »

OK Tom, I cant resist :lol:
Really Big Al and Elliot are the experts here but for my 2p worth. .
With the eaton you will have really to go blow through or fuel injection both make the installation a little more tricky as if you want a blow through carb then that is where the blower wants to be :? with EFI you can make up a mounting flange to a manifold (I would go 2 plane with a 1 to 2 inch spacer and remove half the devider in the middle that is if you want the supercharger sat on top of the engine .
On the other hand a blow through system does give you the freedom to mount the supercharger in different places and add an intercooler.
I presume as this is to go in a disco you want throttle responce and low end torque as you say and it wont be revved over about 5.5K. Try and come up with a set up that lets you put in an intercooler, this will be the best thing for the whole set up as it gives the engine more power and a much easier life. aim for about 6 to 8 psi boost to start with, this set up with an intercooler and mapped efi should see you to about 10 maybe 12 pai boost before you run into detonation.
on that basis, unless another block comes up for peanuts (a 3.9 is worth considering and there are still lots about) stick with the one you have and get it hot tanked and rebored and the mains line bored so it is all nice and square and get the decks squared to the crank and skimmed flat.
ARP stud kit for the bottom end, and consider ARP head studs if you have an extra £80 on the budget, either way new non stretch head bolts at a minimum leave out the outer 10 bolts on the heads.
New standard pistons should be good enough, get a set that will give about 8.75 to 9.25 to1 CR with SDI or range rover heads and composit gaskets (P6 are rubbish heads) get them skimmed flat but only the minimum skim to do the job. You want the waisted stem valves either standard size inlet and exhaust or standard inlet and over size exhaust, bullet guides and a simple pocket port job ( details on many other threads on here) matched to the inlet manifold but don't open up the ports at the inlet mating face as this will ruin the throttle responce. open up the exhaust ports behind the valves as far as you can and blend them out to the headers, but again don't go too far at the manifold face.
cam wise go for a standard road cam, or a mild perfomance one, go for one with a wide LSA (lobe seperation angle) and as much lift as you can, avoid the stage 1 v8, 101fc and MGB v8 cams as they are intended to restrict the power and strangle the engine. Install it about 4 degrees retarded.
Get the crank ground, check the rods are straight and get them shot peaned once you have cleaned them up for casting flash etc. use good quality bearings and ARP rod bolts.
You should see 280to 320 bhp depending on cam, intercooler and displacment, maybe a little more on a 3.9, personally I would avoid the 4.0 block as they are a poor quality version of the 4.6 and they are prone to drop liners and have too meny faults.
Ask away, this sounds a fun project :D
Mike
poppet valves rule!

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Post by bigaldart »

Above is a sound build up, would stud the head first if you can't afford both. Gasket is the weak link. We still run stock bolts on mains at 400 hp or so. Studs next season though. Look for a solid bottom end first and foremost after the head studs. The Real Steel blower cam is a great piece so go with that and Rhoades lifters if not running a stocker. SD1 or better heads are nice if you have them but you will make almost the same power with the P6 heads. Differences are very slight on a blower motor. SD1 are easier to do a quick clean up porting job though. Stock pistons are a weak link but at 6-8 psi should be fine. If at all possible a suck through set up is easier to tune. No need for a special carb a stock 650 Holley will be fine for the street. Do shot peen the rods, this is very important along with good rod bolts. Blower motors fail on the induction stroke if anytime so tensile strength is more important than compression. When you set up the drive you don't need the harmonic balancer, a hub to bolt the pulleys to is all you need, drive belt acts as the elastomer and the blowers inertia acts as the outer ring. This will allow a more compact front end set up.

Alan

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Post by richb77 »

Sorry for the delay in replying.

So I have a few options open to me :)

I was only thinking of low pressure as after all it will be in a 4x4 not a street racer. Torque is the key factor not necesarily high RPM power.

I do have a second V8 (lucky boy i know. But like busses i waited for years and then two come along within a week of each other!). The first (P6 one) is fitted in the Land rover the second is in the back at the moment. I know it came from a Range rover and i am guessing its from a pre SD1 (my cousin gave it to me and has a penchent for old Rangie classics) also but i will check this from the engine number. That being a lower compression lump and already out of a vehicle may prove more beneficial when considering a supercharger. Especially as i can rebuild using better pistons e.t.c.

I'll keep reading and pestering i am sure :)

Cheers for the info guys. You have been brilliant.

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Post by JP. »

topcatproduction wrote:With an Eaton you should be going for a blow through set up or injection as it is debatable whether the seals in them are fuel proof or not. Suck through options are limited to big old GMC or Wade blowers that will stick out the bonnet by at least a foot, or new and very expensive screw superchargers that are more efficient- but you pay for it.

Your high compression P6 lump is not ideal as you really want to be lowering compression, a lot of blown V8's run anywhere from 6 or 7:1, normally up to about 8.5:1 (Mike or Elliot feel free to correct me with some example you have seen!!!) and you preferably want to run a blower cam, though standard one will probably be ok.

There is also the ignition to sort out as you need to retard the ignition relative to boost, MSD make a module that does this for a couple of hundred pounds or more with the low £ per $.

Basically as I have found, it looks easy but there is a lot more to think about! Oh, you also need to ARP stud the top and bottom end, and use double valve springs (not the old P6 double ones) which also require new retainers. Anti pump lifters are also a must as you can't risk having an inlet valve held open as if you get a backfire with a blower- it aint good!

P6 heads also have smaller valves, you are better off with early Range Rover heads like mine (unless you can afford worked ones!) as they have slightly bigger valves and bigger combustion chambers than the later ones. Composite head gaskets will help lower the CR.

Think thats about it.....
On the spot !!

Allthough double valve springs are not required, std ones will work fine unless your going extreme boost.
As the Rover lump is alloy, higher compression ratio's can be run with boost. Did run 9,5:1 cr with 7 psi for years, now run 9 :1 cr with 10 psi.
Alloy desipates heat in a differend way and expands in a diferend way compared to cast iron. All books refur to cast iron boat anchors which you don't have. So no need to go back to 8,5:1cr allthough 10:1 is to high.

There are some more suck trough options like Weiand 142, 144, 177 series and the old series Magnachargers. Ask UK blowers for a kit.
ARP studs in the head are prevered, bottom end depends on your budged but aint neccessarry.

Carb wise. Holley 390 or Holley 465. Holley also sells a 570 street avenger which is a modifiet 465. Holley 600 and bigger are no no and way to big on a blown 3,5 V8. (experiance).
Holley 465's can be found for peanunts on eBay.

What do I know..................I build my engine myself with some help from UK Blowers & Real Steel. I run it for 5 years now with no problems at all.
No ARP in the bottom end, stock pistons and conrods. Just be shure it wont detonate (why I am running the MSD BTM) cause detonation kills.
'73 Ford Capri. 3.5 RV8, Magnacharger 110 Supercharger, Merlin F85 Heads, Water/Methanol Injected
'73 Ford F250, 6.7ltr V8
Building a GT40 mk2

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Post by richb77 »

Bit of an update.

I have located and purchased a 4.0 RV8

Of course its EFi (and currently in a 1991 Range rover Vogue SE)

Is there any online instructions to making/modifying the inlet manifold to take an M90?

Also a newb question again. How much extra BHP could i expect to see?

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Post by topcatcustom »

I doubt you will find any instructions with measurements on etc as that stuff is so rare its all custom made- so you decide what manifold etc you want to use too. I'm guessing that the M90 nose will be way too short for a bolt on mod, so you will probably either have to get a new longer nose made (if its going on top of the engine) or mount it somewhere else and pipe it in to the inlet manifold. May be your easiest option as you only have to make some mounts up then.
TC

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Post by landy 88 v8 »

hey guys am i right or wrong please correct me is it safe to use a 3.9 block out of a rangerover would that eliminate the liners from doing the same as the 4.0 up to 4.6 and 5.0 with a blower and i know it may sound daft but is the low compression pistons have the concaved type top to them were as the high comp ones are slightly flatter soz to interupt but ive got a polished 3.9 block and 3.5 p6 block both polished and yes i was bored one weeked :lol:

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