Opinion / advice on my build - and 4.6 Clevite part numbers?

turbodave · Post by **turbodave** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:05 pm

I live in the USA and have a 4.6 in a 2003 Discovery that has slippy liner syndrome...
It's very likely I'm going to be getting a block shipped from V8D as the prices I'm getting quoted stateside *start* at $1500 - and the lower prices are from companies who haven't much experience with doing this to the Rover block. I'd rather pay a little more and know that I'm getting something from V8D and that it'll be right first time...

So, the current engine runs perfectly. I reconditioned the cylinder heads last year, replaced the pump, canshaft, lifters, rockers, etc last year, hoping one of these things would fix the ticking - but it didn't (I knew it wouldn't LOL)... The indentations on the 'old' headgasket rings clearly showed two liners moving in places they shouldn't be. Interestingly, the engine never used a drop of water, or oil - it just starts ticking when warmed up (presumably as the block expands and the liners cease to be held tightly...

It's done circa 7000 miles ticking away to itself, so this isn't some big-end noise - it's definately just some loose liners... Compression and leakdown is very good also - the vehicle was main-delaer serviced until I got it...

So, what I am proposing is to basicaly remove my engine when the block arrives, send the crank off for a polish, clean and check the rods, pistons, etc and basically re-use all the components in the 'new' engine block. I'll replace the shells, rings, seals, etc with new - but basically I want to do this as simply and cheaply as possible. I am of course assuming my pistons and crank are servicable - but the general health of the current engine doesn't suggest they'd be anything but usable.

I'm not looking at any other modifications - this is basically a stock engine rebuild (refresh is probaly more appropriate)!

So, Am I right in understanding the 4.6 has stretch bolts on the Big-engs? Are non-genuine B.E. bolts ok for the application or shall I just buy ARP?

I see from ReelSteel, that Clevite/M77 sell Mains/BE shells for the 4.6, but speaking with the person on the end of the phone at Michigan77 didn't yeild a result... Does anyone know the part numbers? Are these bearings ideal for what is basically a low-stressed road engine - or would OEM LR be better?

Any opinions on Piston rings suppliers (standard 4.6 fitment)? I see ReelSteel have a set for 40quid - which is waaaay cheaper than LR prices - but are they going to be suitable for a long-life engine?

Thanks for any advice / pointers!
Dave

Ian Anderson · Post by **Ian Anderson** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:37 pm

Dave
Firstly welcome to the mad house of this forum

Couple of things to watch the £ is on song against the $ so prices converted to your currency will be getting higher

And any rebuild on a Rover engine should start with a new cam and lifters - they are almost treated as consumables as the cams wear terribly and need to be matched with a lifter or wear rate will skyrocket.

So that said as as you are in USA it may be that you turn the Rover into a boat anchor and fit a Chevvy engine

Ian

turbodave · Post by **turbodave** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:15 pm

Cams and lifters - yes, would change as a matter of course...

I always watch the ex rate carefully, I'm happy with 1.55, as it is way better than the 1.95 when I bought a quaife early last year...

As regards swaps, if the Discovery was a 2002 or older, I'd be more inclined to look at something else, but unfortunately it has the later 'electronic' controlled transmission, which makes engine swaps even more difficult...
This is also the wife's car, hence keeping it to a stock spec is my goal (and as cheaply as possible)... Finally, the wife wouldn't have anything to do with anything chevrolet (it's a nascar thing) so that limits what I could fit anyways....

TVRleigh · Post by **TVRleigh** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:20 am

V8D should be able to provide you will all the bits you need. Camshaft, Lifters, shells, gaskets.
And should be able to ship with your block, so will save on shipping costs.
The big end bolts are not stretch but the rod bolts are and so are the head bolts.
For the heads and esp as your in the USA I'd fit some ARP studs (about $100).
Rod bolts are about £2 each.

SuperV8 · Post by **SuperV8** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:30 am

I would be weary about changing the big end bolts for a non standard ARP bolt as you would need to have each big end machined round again with the new bolts fitted and torqued. For a standard engine the standard bolts would be fine.

Tom.

Muscle-Manta · Post by **Muscle-Manta** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:37 pm

Dave, May be worth looking at this site:

http://www.aluminumv8.com/tech/tech.htm

As they are your side of the pond it might be more economic that shipping cam lifters ect from the UK.

TVRleigh · Post by **TVRleigh** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:29 am

SuperV8 wrote:I would be weary about changing the big end bolts for a non standard ARP bolt as you would need to have each big end machined round again with the new bolts fitted and torqued. For a standard engine the standard bolts would be fine.

Tom.

Sorry if my post read like that, only bolts I recommended you change to ARP was the head bolts.
As said the rod bolts are stretch and should be change for new ones at £2 each.

minorv8 · Post by **minorv8** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:22 pm

Are you absolutely sure about the rod bolts being stretch bolts ? Factory manual does not say anything about replacing them. It does say that new head bolts need to be fitted.

I have a set of AE main bearings, they are marked S70711SA and S70712SA (plain bearings and one thrust).

mgbv8 · Post by **mgbv8** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:13 pm

Dave!
I agree with Muscle Manta..
Talk to Mark or Dan Lagrou at aluminium v8. They are most helpful.

Perry

turbodave · Post by **turbodave** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:05 pm

Thanks for all the pointers guys!

I too don't recall any reference in the factory manual of stretch bolts, but everyone seems to sell them, so it must be true!

So, I sent an email to V8D to order a new block. I agree that the guy at allyV8 in Michigan appears to be the 'specialist' on this side of the pond, but I heard several quotes of $200 per cylinder for his top-hat liner work, which makes it $1600. I then need to ship a block to and from him as well, so work on $1700 at a guess. The other factor is that there was a service bulletin 2003 for the V8's because the dowels for the front-cover were machined incorrectly causing the pump rotors to fail.... I have one of those blocks, and despite having made a good effort at re-aligning the cover (having found a broken annulus, despite making excellent oil pressure before the last strip-down),,,, I would just prefer to have a different block... ('8-)')

V8D wanted £1100 for a core engine block and the liner work, and the shipping quote is only £85... all of which is $1860 at today's price...
I also have heard many, many compliments of V8D's work - so know I'll get a 'right first time' part...

Still wondering if anyone has the Clevite numbers!

TVRleigh · Post by **TVRleigh** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:58 am

minorv8 wrote:Are you absolutely sure about the rod bolts being stretch bolts ? Factory manual does not say anything about replacing them. It does say that new head bolts need to be fitted.

I have a set of AE main bearings, they are marked S70711SA and S70712SA (plain bearings and one thrust).

He has a 4,6 so yes, the later 4.0 and 4.6 engines has stretch bolts on the rods, the earlier engines did not.

minorv8 · Post by **minorv8** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:02 pm

I have also a 4,6 litre engine and I re-used the rods bolts simply because the factory manual did not say anything about fitting new ones.

TVRleigh · Post by **TVRleigh** » Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:59 pm

minorv8 wrote:I have also a 4,6 litre engine and I re-used the rods bolts simply because the factory manual did not say anything about fitting new ones.

If they are the same as these
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWAX:IT
Then the manual should have said to replace them, are you 100% your using the right manual.
Also see this topic that also says they are stretch.
http://www.v8forum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=58978

minorv8 · Post by **minorv8** » Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:24 pm

Like I said it is a 4,6 litre engine and yes the pic in your link shows the correct bolts for the 4,0/4,6 engines.

Yes, it is the correct factory manual for 4,6 engines and yes, I am familiar with the previous thread. However there is not definite fact that these are stetch bolts.

This is what the manual says about disassembly:

Remove 2 bolts securing each connecting rod
bearing cap, remove caps and recover
connecting rod bearings.
CAUTION: Keep bearing caps, bearings and
bolts in their fitted order.

So what is the point of keeping them in fitted order if you are supposed to discard them ?

And about assembly:

Lightly oil threads of connecting rod bolts. Fit
connecting rod bolts and tighten to 20 Nm (15
lbf.ft) then turn a further 80°.

Nowhere in the manual it says to replace the bolts.

It´s good practice to replace them for hi-po engine provided the replacements are at least the same quality.

TVRleigh · Post by **TVRleigh** » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:30 pm

minorv8 wrote:
This is what the manual says about disassembly:

Remove 2 bolts securing each connecting rod
bearing cap, remove caps and recover
connecting rod bearings.
CAUTION: Keep bearing caps, bearings and
bolts in their fitted order.

So what is the point of keeping them in fitted order if you are supposed to discard them ?

And about assembly:

Lightly oil threads of connecting rod bolts. Fit
connecting rod bolts and tighten to 20 Nm (15
lbf.ft) then turn a further 80°.

Nowhere in the manual it says to replace the bolts.

It´s good practice to replace them for hi-po engine provided the replacements are at least the same quality.

Well I think the manual just says keep in same order, just as matter of course.
AFAIK all bolts that require a torque and then a degree tighten are stretch bolts.
Also I asked John at JE when I was last there, and he said they was stretch and should be replaced. he only builds serious engines and race engines, so I can understand why he would always replace, he also said if reused there is a good chance of them coming loose.
My brother who used to work for Ducati, has in the past re-used stretch bolts without a problem, but as everyone has said stretch bolts should always be replaced.