Could this be the answer to RV8 Oil Pump Problems?

[jefferybond]

If it aint broke.....

Exactly!

What's the point of the engine turning an alternator via a belt, which produces alternating current, which is then rectified, fed to an electric motor, which in turn drives a pump when a simple pair of gears can do the same thing?

I know which one I'd trust to keep on working!

I dont think I'd even trust an electric *water* pump just yet!

Jeff

[jefferybond]

If it aint broke.....

Exactly!

What's the point of the engine turning an alternator via a belt, which produces alternating current, which is then rectified, fed to an electric motor, which in turn drives a pump when a simple pair of gears can do the same thing?

I know which one I'd trust to keep on working!

I dont think I'd even trust an electric *water* pump just yet!

Jeff

[Ian Anderson]

I heard you the first time - Hate it when it double posts!

Well on that theory we should all be walking - why invent the bicycle, then why invent the internal compustion engine, then why invent the car etc?
Why develop LED bulbs or HID (Better ecoomy as less energy is used)

I agree with people about 12 v and that is being addressed at present by the manufacturers

But I still believe that this will be done successfully in the not to distant future

I also agree that I prefer a carb (I understand it) over EFI (Electric trickery!) but probably going to pay for a tuned chip on my car to try and even out the cam pulses and still get past MOT tests.

Cheers
Ian

[Ralphh85]

thats sounds like a very logical step forward.

mechanical oil pumps, same as water pumps are tied to engine RPM which is wasteful, so an electric one would be less wasteful an there fore better.

no point in being scared of new technology!


Ralph

[Richard P6]

I have an Audi A6 which is so complicated, that even Audi specialists and main dealers cannot fix it! It's £60.00 just to plug it in now as well, which is one of the reasons (and possibly the main reason) that I went out and bought a V8 powered P6 with a carb.

Logical step forward? No, just another way of extorting money from us by replacing lots of stuff which is working correctly in the vain hope of 'hopefully' changing the faulty bit.

Do I sound bitter?

Chortle

[topcatcustom]

I agree there is nothing wrong with the current serp oil pumps, but as always- there comes along a beneficial upgrade that isn't always necessary but thats why its a choice!

Think how complicated Honda's VTEC was when it came out, and how dubious people were about having such complicated stuff- turns out to be one of the best designed engines and of all hte units there has never been a single warranty claim.

Technology moves swiftly, once they put a higher voltage system in cars they will all be using electric water pumps, power steering, fans, oil pumps, who knows- maybe camshafts as we know them will be replaced in a few years. I am fairly young, and not a techno geek (or I wouldn't be using carbs, dissy and a belt driven 1950's blower!) but I know my basic stuff, and can quite easily see all chain, cam and gear driven parts being classed as vintage in the not so distant future!

TC

[Ralphh85]

i love the fact that i only have 1 belt, driving the alternator an thats it, i think everything else should be run from the alternator.

i will ditch the dizzy for after market ignition/fuel injection, an losing the oil pump would be another step forward.

car manufacurers do make massive lash ups an make it to complicate dbut they dont have to.

i dont see whats so massively complicated an unreliable about having an emerald ECU, DC EWP, and a leccy oil pump?


Ralph

[katanaman]

thats sounds like a very logical step forward.

mechanical oil pumps, same as water pumps are tied to engine RPM which is wasteful, so an electric one would be less wasteful an there fore better.

no point in being scared of new technology!


Ralph

Not so, if you run an oil pump at idle at 45psi your wasting energy because the engine doesn't need it. There is a better argument for the water pump but they have a pretty poor MTF. Ok for a hobby drive it on a weekend maybe but nothing like a long enough life for general use. I haven't seen one independent source that confirms an electric pump is more efficient or better at cooling.
If you want everything to run of the alternator then junk the gear box fit a generator set to the engine and put electric motors directly on the wheels.

[Ralphh85]

thats sounds like a very logical step forward.

mechanical oil pumps, same as water pumps are tied to engine RPM which is wasteful, so an electric one would be less wasteful an there fore better.

no point in being scared of new technology!


Ralph

Not so, if you run an oil pump at idle at 45psi your wasting energy because the engine doesn't need it. There is a better argument for the water pump but they have a pretty poor MTF. Ok for a hobby drive it on a weekend maybe but nothing like a long enough life for general use. I haven't seen one independent source that confirms an electric pump is more efficient or better at cooling.
If you want everything to run of the alternator then junk the gear box fit a generator set to the engine and put electric motors directly on the wheels.

then you have an electric controller for it which would give you the right presure per RPM of the engine.

either way both systems utilise pumps which pump way to much fluid, and then the fluid is either wasted by the relife valve, or held back by the thermostat, which is in its self both in efficient.

also electric gives you more freedom to run both after engien off if you wish therfore are more useful systems.


Ralph

[katanaman]

if you run a controller your then adding to complexity and directly tied it to rpm same as the mechanical pump so no advantage there. Ability to keep it running after engine off I can see the point of if your running turbos but that type of pump is already in common use or you keep the engine running at tickover for a couple of mins until everything slows down.
Its not that the electric oil pump is a completely daft idea, I just cant see any advantage to it over mechanical at the moment. The future maybe but just now for all the reasons me and a few others have stated above its not its time.

[volospian]

Interesting discussion.

I can see both sides of this, really. I personally think electric pumps is a good thing. Leave the engine doing it's main task, mainly spinning the wheels, while computersied electrickery takes care of it's needs.

I like to imagine a system whereby all fluid requirements, cooling, oil, etc. are monitored and governed by a control unit linked to variable output pumps. The benefits? Well, oil can be pre-pessurised at ignition on, like fuel. The engine can be supplied with the "correct" pressure required at all times, no waste, no starvation. Different parts can be supplied at different rates by the use of seperate oil routes if needs be. As for water, then the efficiency of flow can be perfected, providing maximum heat management at all times. charge coolers and so on could be managed the same way.

Disadvantages? Hmmm, what happens when the chip fails? I work in IT and know the importance of backups and a system like this would have to have so many failsafes. Extended battery performance in case the alternator fails, pump backups in case of a pump failure, multiple circuitry in case of a bad wire or connector... it would probably add so much weight, require such a large power supply, etc. that it would end up outweighing any performance gains made by the reduction of friction from the mechanical pumps and the perfect running temps, oil pressures, etc.

I think, with the way things are moving towards efficiency, emmissions, etc. that maybe electrical fluid control systems will be something that will come into cars at some stage, but I don't think they will be fully electric until the technology is there to make that a viable proposition on road cars... by which time that tech may be better put to use actually driving the car anyway...

[Ralphh85]

Interesting discussion.

I can see both sides of this, really. I personally think electric pumps is a good thing. Leave the engine doing it's main task, mainly spinning the wheels, while computersied electrickery takes care of it's needs.

I like to imagine a system whereby all fluid requirements, cooling, oil, etc. are monitored and governed by a control unit linked to variable output pumps. The benefits? Well, oil can be pre-pessurised at ignition on, like fuel. The engine can be supplied with the "correct" pressure required at all times, no waste, no starvation. Different parts can be supplied at different rates by the use of seperate oil routes if needs be. As for water, then the efficiency of flow can be perfected, providing maximum heat management at all times. charge coolers and so on could be managed the same way.

Disadvantages? Hmmm, what happens when the chip fails? I work in IT and know the importance of backups and a system like this would have to have so many failsafes. Extended battery performance in case the alternator fails, pump backups in case of a pump failure, multiple circuitry in case of a bad wire or connector... it would probably add so much weight, require such a large power supply, etc. that it would end up outweighing any performance gains made by the reduction of friction from the mechanical pumps and the perfect running temps, oil pressures, etc.

I think, with the way things are moving towards efficiency, emmissions, etc. that maybe electrical fluid control systems will be something that will come into cars at some stage, but I don't think they will be fully electric until the technology is there to make that a viable proposition on road cars... by which time that tech may be better put to use actually driving the car anyway...

i think your spot on with advantages but not on disadvantages, theres no more likely hood of your wires failing to your electric oil pump as a conventional one is to fail, which they can do but it hardly ever happens. so i dont see the need for back ups or extra weight.

my friends modern golf gti turbo jobby had a blockage, so conventional aint fail safe.

and end of the day thats why you have an oil presure light.

its a brilliant idea!


Ralph

[stevieturbo]

Next you'll all be saying you want an electric motor driving your cars ???? with huge heavy innefficient polluting batteries.

Progress ?? not so sure.


If things are progressing for good benefit, then by all means. If its just as a novelty, with questionable reliability, then no thanks.

And an oil pressure light is useless. By the time its come on, the damage has been done.

Electric water pumps have been around for years now. And I still wouldnt trust one on a road car. Their reliability for such use has not been proven at all, and thats with relatively light loads placed on them.

An oil pump for an enigne would need a very substantial, heavy motor, with wiring to match...and of course fuses which can blow at random.
You'd then need a more substantial wiring and control system in the car, as well as much larger alternators to keep it all running.

A mechanical oil pump weighs virtually nothing, takes minimal engine power to operate, and most have been proven 99.9% reliable over extreme durations.

An electric setup would have a LOT to keep up with that.

[stevieturbo]

my friends modern golf gti turbo jobby had a blockage, so conventional aint fail safe.

An oil blockage at the pickup due to poor maintentance could happen any engine and oil pump setup.
Thats not the engines fault, or the oil pumps.

[volospian]

i think your spot on with advantages but not on disadvantages, theres no more likely hood of your wires failing to your electric oil pump as a conventional one is to fail, which they can do but it hardly ever happens. so i dont see the need for back ups or extra weight.

my friends modern golf gti turbo jobby had a blockage, so conventional aint fail safe.

and end of the day thats why you have an oil presure light.

its a brilliant idea!


Ralph

Well, nothing is failsafe, however oil pressure failure on a conventional mechanical pump is usually gradual. If an electric pump were to stop pumping, due to whatever reason, your oil loss would be instant.

However, my point was less about the reality of the chances of it happening, more about the amount of damage it could do to the manufacturer if it ever does. Any level of failure could cost a fortune in recalls and warrenty work, and destroy the buyers confidence in the product.

So, as a manufacturer, what would you choose, risking it all on a single electric pump system, fitting electric with some kind of failure protection, or simply relying on the tried and tested mechanical systems?

Fitting an electrical system without some kind of pressure maintaining system would be foolish, and, as has been said, the oil pressure light only tells you that you have lost oil pressure. It doesn't actually prevent anything from seizing!

Plus, as has also been said, an electrical pump, addtitional wiring, a control unit, potentially a bigger battery, a larger alternator, etc. that would be needed would all add weight. Whether it would add more than the HP gain from the lack of mechanical drag... I think so, even ignoring backup circuits, pumps, etc.

I agree, in priciple, it's a good idea. Of course, so is the top fuel dragster, but you wouldn't want one as the reliable family car...