tuning a flapper

adikt · Post by **adikt** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:14 am

What can be done to the standard EFi system to help boost performance? A mate of mine recommended lowering the return spring pressure on the AFM to "improve throttle response". Any tips or tricks would be thankfully received

Thanks

bill shurvinton · Post by **bill shurvinton** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:00 pm

The 14CU is a pretty basic beast. Whilst there are things you can do with a screwdriver that will make it faster you will end up with something that won't idle or drive in traffic.

Mark Adams used to modify 14CU ECUs and there are gains to be had, but to be honest you would be better off looking at an aftermarket unit or getting Phil Ringwood to build you up a megasquirt.

kiwicar · Post by **kiwicar** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:02 pm

if you have a look through the old forum stuff on 14cu ECU's you will see that Bill is giving very good advice here, (read Ian Anderson's stories) this ecu is very limmited and an "improvment" in one bit always ends up with a bad idle or stuttering or hunting. (then the thing thing goes into "limp home mode washes your bores and trashes a set of plugs) By you have bought a "trick" pressure regulator off RPI and a new set of plugs and a chip you are into a a couple of hundread quid. This will get you an assembled magasquirt (less if you build it yourself, and rather than being as far as you can go with the 14cu you are just starting with what the M/S can do. A little more and the Vems unit is yours, also a very good unit, dont wast your money modifying ing the 14cu it just ends in frustration!
Mike

adikt · Post by **adikt** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:29 pm

I must admit, I've never investiagted megasquirt. I've had a quick look and SOLD! Thats just the thing I'm after. I was under the illustion that mappaple ECU were at least £1000. So, In basic terms;

Junk the 14CU ECU
Junk the loom but keep the connectors
Get mr. Ringwood to knock me up a Dizzy Megasquirt kit
Load on a base map
Fiddle till death do us part

Am I in the correct ballpark?

Thanks

Lewis · Post by **Lewis** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:40 pm

I'd like to look into MS'ing my V8 too as it's running a flapper EFi at the moment. I haven't assembled any lists of what I'd need (but it's all on the Megasquirt forums) but from their "success stories" section here's a few Rover's that have been done:

http://www.msefi.com/index.php - main forums

http://www.msruns.com/index.php - success stories

OT has anyone done this themselves? I'd love to know what's involved and the complexity of actually fitting it - soldering up the board doesn't pose any issues for me but wiring looms are always something I probably unjustifiably am finickity about

I'd love to ditch the dizzy as well and go for completely electronic ignition or wasted spark.

Engine: 3.9l V8
Injection: Port injection, Discovery Ram Tube manifold.
Description: Replaced Lucas 4CU flapper system with Megasquirt I. Using all original sensors and hardware, Lucas or Bosch as applicable. NB O2 sensor added.
Website: No website.

Rover SD1 / SE, originally 3.5l.

Spliced MS wiring into original harness so car can be readily changed back to Lucas ECU if needed. Driveability, and consistency of power delivery is much better with MS. Found answers to all my questions so far on the forum search. Thanks to the designers, developers and helpful post-ers, this is a great system.

Vehicle: 1978 Land Rover Series 3 109"

Engine: (Range) Rover 3.9 V8

Injection: injection kit from an early 3.5. (Lucas 14CU ECU + Flapper AFM system)

Description: Sunday morning I drove my Land Rover onto the driveway running Lucas EFi. Sunday afternoon I drove my Land Rover off the driveway running MegaSquirt

Huge thanks to Dave Haynes for spending what was a deceptively cold day helping me out. I'll get round to putting some info / specs / tables / etc. up on my site soon, just got to sort a vacuum leak and tidy up the wiring a bit first.

Website: In case people are interested, the photos of the fitting are here:
www.juracid.co.uk/gallery/thumb.php?dir=ms

And the website about the vehicle is here:
www.juracid.demon.co.uk/lr

Vehicle: 1990 Land Rover Defender
Engine: 3947cc V8 from a 1992 Range Rover

Injection: Port injection using stock Lucas hotwire manifold, injectors and temperature sensors. (Injectors are Lucas 8NJ, which have a flow of around 185cc/min)

Description: I am using MSnS-Extras together with EDIS to run both fuel and spark with a distributorless ignition. Ignition coils and HT leads are from a 4.0 litre V8 Discovery II
Website: www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net/vehicles/bgs/

Vehicle: 1980 Triumph TR7 V8

Engine: 3.5L Rover V8, 272 degrees Advertised duration cam (202 degrees duration @ 0.050”)

Injection: Port injection, 185CC bosch injectors, ‘federal’ intake plenum.

Description: Stock Rover V8 as shipped to Australia in SD1s and Range Rovers. Engine was rebuilt 20,000km ago and had a slightly warm cam put in. Nothing special about the induction. Car put out 95kW @ the wheels on the dyno with the old L-Jetronic injection. With MS it’s putting out about 105kW with significant gains in mid-range torque.

So looks like it's well doable!

Presumably you could run up a Ford V8 EDIS module, couple o' coilpacks and bazaam, electronic ignition as well. Can't remember if you'd need a crank trigger for that or not.

Must read up on it as I'm supposed to know these things

adikt · Post by **adikt** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:15 pm

I want to keep my dizzy, I quite like it. You would need a CKP sensor, later cars must have them on somewhere, or just gob on a reluctor ring to the front pulley.

Although I understand electronics, I am crap at soldering due to impatience and sauasage fingers, so I'd would definatly get a fully built one. I'm getting quite excited bout this now. How sad!!

jwriyadh · Post by **jwriyadh** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:32 pm

Lewis, in the process of doing three conversions at the mo. With luck I will be on my way to install the first next week.
I will keep a mental note of how the process flows.

jw

Lewis · Post by **Lewis** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:55 pm

Awesome! I look forward to hearing how it goes - best of luck!

adikt · Post by **adikt** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:54 pm

Yeh, same here. Would be really good to know.

Thanks

Post by **katanaman** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:50 pm

don't forget the other low cost option in ECU which is VEMS http://www.vems.co.uk/ especially if you wanted full ignition as well. Pro's and cons between them but on full ignition setup VEMS could be cheaper by the time you buy the wideband controller that the VEMS comes with as standard.

As to how hard MS is to solder up yourself, if your competent at soldering it isn't. I wouldn't recommend it if you cant solder and get it pre-made instead. Also some of the options with the MS extra can be a little difficult if you aren't used to electronics as you have to build the circuits for them and package them also.

daxtojeiro · Post by **daxtojeiro** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:06 pm

Hi all,
Ive fitted several MS's to RV8's and Ive supplied loads of them too. The best method is to fit a 36-1 wheel onto the crank (I have a supplier for these now) and either run wasted spark with EDIS8 or simply 2 x Ford coil packs directly from the ECU.
If not you can use the 36-1 and a dizzy or the hall sensor in the dizzy.
You can run fuel only (remove and dump the MAF and Lucas ECU) it can trigger from the coils -ve.
The only thing youll need to add is an Air Temp sensor and, if you have a hotwire setup, youll need a different Idle valve, as the 4 pinned item on a RV8 is a stepper motor and we cant control that. The Idle valves are available from scrappies if needed.
Phil

adikt · Post by **adikt** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:14 pm

Straight from the horses mouth as they say! I thought that the RV8 Had an air temp, although thinking about it probably just a coolant temp?!

One query tho, how does the MS determine air flow without the meter? Does it use a MAP sensor instead?

Post by **katanaman** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:01 pm

Uses MAP and the air temp sensor is built into the flaper or hotwire unit.

daxtojeiro · Post by **daxtojeiro** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:23 am

adikt wrote:Straight from the horses mouth as they say! I thought that the RV8 Had an air temp, although thinking about it probably just a coolant temp?!

One query tho, how does the MS determine air flow without the meter? Does it use a MAP sensor instead?

Hi there,
the Air temp sensor is either inside the MAF if its a flapper or the air temp is compensated for in the hotwire setup. Either way youll need to fit an air temp sensor as the MAF is best thrown away (removes the restriction)

Then as you say, load is calculated by the built in MAP sensor, or you can use TPS (Alpha_N) MAP is the best option though unless your running something like ITB's or an ACT triple intake and a very lumpy cam,
Phil