Clutch noise ????

mike-b · Post by **mike-b** » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:04 pm

Good evening all,
Got a standard rover 9.5 inch clutch & T5 w.c on a 3.9.
Clutch works properly and gear change is smooth.
However it makes a noise when the clutch is released, i.e. foot off the pedal. Press the pedal and noise goes. The car does n`t shudder at any time and the transmission is all smooth.
Noise always there even in neutral until pedal pressed.
Clutch less than 200 miles and all was brand new when fitted, correct spigot fitted.
Any ideas whats wrong?
Thanks guys.

SimpleSimon · Post by **SimpleSimon** » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:46 pm

Are you using the correct release bearing? as there are supposedly 2 one for the flat fingered cover plate and one for the curly finger type

one release bearing as a flat face and the other a beveled face

mike-b · Post by **mike-b** » Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:40 pm

Hi Simon,
Good point ..... not sure .... but if possible to fit the wrong one you could put money on it hat I have!
Forgive my ignorance please which bearing is used for what finger shape? That could be a good starting point.
Many thanks, mike

DEVONMAN · Post by **DEVONMAN** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:42 am

Hi,
Flat fingered clutch diaphragms normally need a domed faced release bearing.

The noise may just be due to slack in the release system when the pedal is not under pressures allowing the bearing and carrier to rattle.

Have you got an external slave cylinder or a concentric type?

I believe the external type have a very light spring internally to keep slight pressure on and slack out of the system when the pedal is not being pushed.

Regards Denis

mike-b · Post by **mike-b** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:55 pm

Hi Denis, Thanks for your last.
I have the OEM slave cylinder type attached to the B.H., not the Con.
I can see & touch the inside of the bell from the bottom and it "seems" that nothing is loose to cause a noise - but then that doesn`t mean all is well.
I may have to take the `box off and check the clutch RB - it could be the wrong type.
The problem is this car never had a clutch in its life and the Ford manual version used a cable that pulled the lever toward the engine, now its pushed using hydraulics and there is a good chance I have fitted the wrong release bearing.
There doesn`t seem to be any play anywhere, however it works perfectly well, just makes a bloody noise when doing nothing else!

DEVONMAN · Post by **DEVONMAN** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:01 pm

The noise could be a gearbox bearing. (Hope not).
The gearbox shaft normally stops spinning when you press the clutch and would rumble again with the clutch pedal released.

You can eliminate this possibility by checking to see if the noise disapears when you lightly touch the clutch pedal.

Denis

mike-b · Post by **mike-b** » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:35 pm

Hi Denis, Gearbox bearing ? Your diagnosis is valid, however the gearbox has also done less than 200 miles since recon at CTS ( gearboxman). The box does make a noise of its own but only when the car is moving - an OTT upgrade to Quaife, well over the top for my engine but I have learned to live with it .... a case of having to and my own fault.
If someone was prepared I would swop it for a recon T5 wc ( cosworth ) tomorrow! Lesson learned.
I am still thinking release bearing or something to do with it.
The pedal has to go down at least 2-inch under pressure before the noise stops.
The noise is not a rattle - I can best describe it as someone holding a screwdriver to a lump of metal that is spinning.
Realistically a closer look is needed and that is a `box off job.
Regards Mike

unstable load · Post by **unstable load** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:27 am

mike-b wrote:Hi Denis, Gearbox bearing ? Your diagnosis is valid, however the gearbox has also done less than 200 miles since recon at CTS ( gearboxman).

Sadly, that doesn't mean a thing.
If the noise goes away with your foot lightly on the pedal, then it's most likely a release bearing as described earlier. If the noise stops with the clutch depressed and comes back as you release the clutch in neutral, then it looks like the box is fubar-bundy.

DEVONMAN · Post by **DEVONMAN** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:17 am

It does point to a gearbox noise.

Out of interest, what was the T5 gearbox originally from and what release bearing carrier are you using?
The support tube diameter on gearboxes varies between the Rover LT77 and the T5 and the T5 depends on whether it's T5 Cosworth or TVR or from the USA

Regards
Denis

mike-b · Post by **mike-b** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:29 pm

Hi Denis / John,
On Friday the car went in for its MoT. ..... It passed, however while there I took the opportunity to ask the guy what his thoughts were about the problem. A mechanic for 50 years - but that doesn`t make him an expert.
He said my clutch was stiffer than he would expect ( hydraulic ) and the problem MAY be the gearbox lay-shaft. Though the clutch works A Ok.
I had told him it had got the almost straight cut Quaife gears in the T5 `box and that it had done less than 200 miles since being recondition by "Gearboxman".
He seemed to think the gears being new and tight - including everything else in the box - that all would improve when the box had been used more.
The box is a T5 WC ( 184 ) from a cosworth - the release bearing could be the wrong one but I have doubts about that being wrong as I ordered the complete clutch from Paul at "V8tuner" and he knew exactly what I was fitting and to what. However, we wouldn`t be human if we didn`t make mistakes and assumption is the mother of all F.U`s so its worth a check.
However i am all ears and your answer(s) are heard and inwardly digested.
What say you now? Cos i`m buggered if I know!!
Regards Mike.

DaveEFI · Post by **DaveEFI** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:50 pm

Is the gearbox one you're familiar with? You say it has straight cut gears - these can be very noisy even when fine. Does the noise get less at higher revs - or just change pitch?

mike-b · Post by **mike-b** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:30 pm

Hi Dave,
I know the `box and I also know a box with almost straight cut gears will whine, I also get your point. However it isn`t the whine.
The noise is not the whine I get from the box when on the move. If the engine is started and the box is in neutral with the clutch engaged, car at a stand still, I get the noise, now if I press the clutch pedal down ( hydraulic ) about 2-inch the noise goes, let the pedal return, clutch engaged again, the noise returns.
When i noticed it at first I thought it was the engine and was somewhat relieved when I found the noise went away when the clutch pedal was pressed!!
It looks like I may have to pull the `box and see if I can find the fault, I am just hoping it is not the box input shaft. The bugger of it all is the clutch works perfectly well.
Thinking about it and reading what I have just written, if the box is in neutral, car at a stand still and the clutch engaged the input shaft of the box must be turning ( am i correct ? ) then when the clutch is disengaged the box input shaft should stop turning - and so does the noise!! I think I may be returning the box to "Gearboxman" .... though I hope not.
Regards mike.

DaveEFI · Post by **DaveEFI** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 7:46 am

What is was sort of meaning is you can get 'chatter' between gears when they are running with no load, ie neutral, between the input and layshaft cogs. If you lift the driven wheels off the road so it can idle at the same speed but in gear do you still get the same sort of noise?

DEVONMAN · Post by **DEVONMAN** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:28 am

It would be useful to know if the clutch actually clears when you push the pedal to the 2" position. Try putting it into first at this 2" position. If you can't select 1st without a crunch then the gearbox is still spinning and if the noise is not there then it's probably not the gearbox.

mike-b · Post by **mike-b** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:51 pm

Hi dave / Denis, Thank you both for your last replies.

Dave, I have not tried getting the drive wheels off the deck yet and say letting it run at tick-over speed but in gear. Sounds like a good idea as I am able to get the car high enough for me to be under the car ( but toward one side out of reach of the prop ) while a drive wheel ( not LSD ) is being driven.
Sorry if I seem to be putting hurdles in the way however, the car has hardly been used certainly less than 200 miles since the following work has been done. New complete clutch, recon T5 and a propshaft altered and balanced by "Reco Prop" in Luton. The prop has grease nipples at both UJ`s and a new sealed for life centre bearing and Yoke.
The noise is at the forward end of the box or clutch. I realize that some sounds can travel through equipment though it is still worth a listen from underneath, so I`ll try it.

Denis, When the clutch pedal is pressed the noise goes when the pedal is down 2-inch and no it will not go into gear at that point. If this is any help the slave is the standard SD1 type and the master is a 3/4 inch diameter body - both brand new. Wrong or right the clutch works fine.
Tomorrow, Monday, I will have a listen underneath. The ideal would be to disconnect the prop at the gearbox and then have a listen, snag is I would loose all the oil.

I hope the above helps but I am thinking of removing the box and taking a look. The problem there is what would I be looking to find?

Regards .. Mike