Advice please
Moderator: phpBB2 - Administrators
-
- Forum Contributor
- Posts: 208
- Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:49 pm
- Location: Markfield, Leicestershire.
Advice please
I have here a RV8 3.9 in a Ford Granada Mk2 (1984 )
The cooling system uses a P6 coolant pump, a R/R V8 rad and an Sd1 shroud.
Surprisingly they fit together well, a Performer 180 manifold is also used, this is plumbed with the o/put going through the heater and returned to the pump as per P6 system.
The problem is I would like an improved system. A P6 pump is a must - space front to back is a little tight so it would always be a fixed fan due to pump type.
Would an electric fan sucking NOT blowing fitted to the rad work better?
The pump fan would have to be removed to enable fitting the electric fan.
I have looked at two fans both 16 inch at 2000 CFM one curved blades the other straight.
Your views please?
The cooling system uses a P6 coolant pump, a R/R V8 rad and an Sd1 shroud.
Surprisingly they fit together well, a Performer 180 manifold is also used, this is plumbed with the o/put going through the heater and returned to the pump as per P6 system.
The problem is I would like an improved system. A P6 pump is a must - space front to back is a little tight so it would always be a fixed fan due to pump type.
Would an electric fan sucking NOT blowing fitted to the rad work better?
The pump fan would have to be removed to enable fitting the electric fan.
I have looked at two fans both 16 inch at 2000 CFM one curved blades the other straight.
Your views please?
Mike B Drives a 1984 Mk2 Granada ghia V8.
An electric fan that sucks through the rad is usually better than one that blows from the front. I have found that the fans motor power rating has a significant effect on things. I run a Kenlowe 13" fan with a 24 amp motor and this just does the job. I recently tried a 14" fan with a 10 amp motor and it didn't do the job and never switched off. But, fans with high power motors are expensive.
Good cowling around the fan is important too.
Regards Denis
Good cowling around the fan is important too.
Regards Denis
Mike,
If you do have the space fit suckers. I recently completed a comparison from the main suppliers [Kenlowe, Revotec, Spal, Pacet etc] and found Revotec to have the highest cfm to fan size, diameter and depth. Revotec also have the best type of fan mountings...none of the cable tie through radiator rubbish.
It would be worth penning out your fan size requirements and sending this to the manufacturers/suppliers and get them to spec'/quote the fans for you.
If you do have the space fit suckers. I recently completed a comparison from the main suppliers [Kenlowe, Revotec, Spal, Pacet etc] and found Revotec to have the highest cfm to fan size, diameter and depth. Revotec also have the best type of fan mountings...none of the cable tie through radiator rubbish.
It would be worth penning out your fan size requirements and sending this to the manufacturers/suppliers and get them to spec'/quote the fans for you.
-
- Forum Contributor
- Posts: 208
- Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:49 pm
- Location: Markfield, Leicestershire.
Thank you gentlemen for your replies - a very helpful site this as always.
I have the space to fit a 16 inch curved blade fan. I have taken the advice of NOT attaching it through the rad fins and it will be sucking at a rate of 2000 CFM. when at full tilt.
Fan noise would not be a problem - I doubt it would ever drown out the quaife straight cut T5 !!!
I also have an electronic temperature module with a range from 5 deg.C to 200 C and can be made to control (say) a 40 amp relay, it can switch at any temperature I choose.
A by-pass switch controlling the relay would be a good idea too - you know belt & braces.
I have gone for the larger fan as opposed to two smaller ones but with the ability of reversing the system and fitting the original fan blade back onto the pump should the electric fan breakdown - that would be in the middle of the night when its raining.
The fan shroud will remain in place.
I have the space to fit a 16 inch curved blade fan. I have taken the advice of NOT attaching it through the rad fins and it will be sucking at a rate of 2000 CFM. when at full tilt.
Fan noise would not be a problem - I doubt it would ever drown out the quaife straight cut T5 !!!
I also have an electronic temperature module with a range from 5 deg.C to 200 C and can be made to control (say) a 40 amp relay, it can switch at any temperature I choose.
A by-pass switch controlling the relay would be a good idea too - you know belt & braces.
I have gone for the larger fan as opposed to two smaller ones but with the ability of reversing the system and fitting the original fan blade back onto the pump should the electric fan breakdown - that would be in the middle of the night when its raining.
The fan shroud will remain in place.
Mike B Drives a 1984 Mk2 Granada ghia V8.
- Ian Anderson
- Forum Contributor
- Posts: 2396
- Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:46 pm
- Location: Edinburgh
Presumably you do not have any cooling issues.
This means your engine temp does not increase when stationary or stop start driving.
Then I would expect any 16 inch fan would do as good a job or better than the engine driven one.
It should never me needed above about 20mph as by then the normal flow of air will outstrip what the fan can do.
Ian
This means your engine temp does not increase when stationary or stop start driving.
Then I would expect any 16 inch fan would do as good a job or better than the engine driven one.
It should never me needed above about 20mph as by then the normal flow of air will outstrip what the fan can do.
Ian
Owner of an "On the Road" GT40 Replica by DAX powered by 3.9Hotwre Efi, worked over by DJ Motors. EFi Working but still does some kangaroo at low revs (Damn the speed limits) In to paint shop 18/03/08.
-
- Forum Contributor
- Posts: 208
- Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:49 pm
- Location: Markfield, Leicestershire.
Hi Ian, Thank you for your last.
I do have an issue with my cooling system, it never seems to have enough coolant as stated in the manuals. It has always had a rad from a rover V8 engine, at the moment it has a R/Rover V8 auto rad fitted but as always there never seems to be enough coolant.
This rad was bought 2 years ago - brand new.
I am also using a header tank ( pressurised ... so header tank ) that is connected thus: The bottom is connected via a "T" to the bottom rad hose, 15mm ID "T" to tank. The top connects direct to the top of the rad on the drivers side the hose size needed for this is 12mm I.D. and a overflow from the header tank to road via pressure cap should it decide to let go. - it never has. The rad has no filler cap, the system is filled via the header tank that is higher than the top of the engine. Normal coolant level in the header would be level with the top of the rocker covers.
Using this system I never get air locks that stay locked. After about 2 minutes of running any air has been flushed out, I can see this via the see through header tank coolant level.
My thoughts are if my system is short of coolant when its full then it needs an improved air flow .... somehow. Hence the bloody great fan.
The only thing I have not done yet is to drill those two holes in the Performer manifold.
I have tried routing the o/p from the heater direct to the top hose and block its connection at the pump - that didn`t work either.
I even fitted a reconditioned pump - I have to use the P6 pump the sd1 is to long - and I didn`t see any improvement.
So at the moment I am between a rock and a hard place.
I do have an issue with my cooling system, it never seems to have enough coolant as stated in the manuals. It has always had a rad from a rover V8 engine, at the moment it has a R/Rover V8 auto rad fitted but as always there never seems to be enough coolant.
This rad was bought 2 years ago - brand new.
I am also using a header tank ( pressurised ... so header tank ) that is connected thus: The bottom is connected via a "T" to the bottom rad hose, 15mm ID "T" to tank. The top connects direct to the top of the rad on the drivers side the hose size needed for this is 12mm I.D. and a overflow from the header tank to road via pressure cap should it decide to let go. - it never has. The rad has no filler cap, the system is filled via the header tank that is higher than the top of the engine. Normal coolant level in the header would be level with the top of the rocker covers.
Using this system I never get air locks that stay locked. After about 2 minutes of running any air has been flushed out, I can see this via the see through header tank coolant level.
My thoughts are if my system is short of coolant when its full then it needs an improved air flow .... somehow. Hence the bloody great fan.
The only thing I have not done yet is to drill those two holes in the Performer manifold.
I have tried routing the o/p from the heater direct to the top hose and block its connection at the pump - that didn`t work either.
I even fitted a reconditioned pump - I have to use the P6 pump the sd1 is to long - and I didn`t see any improvement.
So at the moment I am between a rock and a hard place.
Mike B Drives a 1984 Mk2 Granada ghia V8.
- Ian Anderson
- Forum Contributor
- Posts: 2396
- Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:46 pm
- Location: Edinburgh
Try something
Get a mole grip and stop all circulation through the heater core (cabin heater)
that way all the fluid has to go through the rad.
Strange but in conversions you often hear about the heater core offering less flow resistance than the rad and thermostat so the coolant takes the route of least resistance.
Lastly
If air cones through t radiator grill does it all get pushed through the rad or can it escape rounds the sides, top or bottom.
And once the air gets through the rad can it escape?
Rule of thumb, 1/3 area of rad as grill opening and at least 2/3 of the area do the rad to allow the air to escape!
Get a mole grip and stop all circulation through the heater core (cabin heater)
that way all the fluid has to go through the rad.
Strange but in conversions you often hear about the heater core offering less flow resistance than the rad and thermostat so the coolant takes the route of least resistance.
Lastly
If air cones through t radiator grill does it all get pushed through the rad or can it escape rounds the sides, top or bottom.
And once the air gets through the rad can it escape?
Rule of thumb, 1/3 area of rad as grill opening and at least 2/3 of the area do the rad to allow the air to escape!
Owner of an "On the Road" GT40 Replica by DAX powered by 3.9Hotwre Efi, worked over by DJ Motors. EFi Working but still does some kangaroo at low revs (Damn the speed limits) In to paint shop 18/03/08.
-
- Forum Contributor
- Posts: 3979
- Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:22 pm
- Location: Northern Ireland
Re: Advice please
Cut the nose off the front of the pump and cut away the OEM rad section from the chassis to allow a rad to push tight against the slam panel.. This will give you more room for a fan on the engine side if that's what you really want.mike-b wrote:I have here a RV8 3.9 in a Ford Granada Mk2 (1984 )
The cooling system uses a P6 coolant pump, a R/R V8 rad and an Sd1 shroud.
Surprisingly they fit together well, a Performer 180 manifold is also used, this is plumbed with the o/put going through the heater and returned to the pump as per P6 system.
The problem is I would like an improved system. A P6 pump is a must - space front to back is a little tight so it would always be a fixed fan due to pump type.
Would an electric fan sucking NOT blowing fitted to the rad work better?
The pump fan would have to be removed to enable fitting the electric fan.
I have looked at two fans both 16 inch at 2000 CFM one curved blades the other straight.
Your views please?
But really, it will be a lot easier to install pushers.
But yes pullers are more efficient. I'd rather have more core coverage with a slightly less efficient fan, than poor core coverage with a more efficient fan. There really isnt much between them and core coverage is always good.
-
- Forum Contributor
- Posts: 3979
- Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:22 pm
- Location: Northern Ireland
And I'm confused....mike-b wrote:Hi Ian, Thank you for your last.
I do have an issue with my cooling system, it never seems to have enough coolant as stated in the manuals..
The above is not an issue, it's simply a statement of the system requiring less coolant to fill than another vehicles.
Are there any actual problems ?
-
- Forum Contributor
- Posts: 208
- Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:49 pm
- Location: Markfield, Leicestershire.
Stevie, Know where you`re at with regards slam panel - the rad is right up against it, where I have made the cut to allow the rad to sit up straight I have secured angled ally to the sharp edge thus protecting the rad.
Ian, the rad is as above and tight against the slam panel. the fan shroud tight against the rad. Air drawn through the rad cannot escape out the sides it has to go out the rear of the shroud over & around the engine then under the floor. Above the engine there is space but not a lot. A 2-inch thick 14-inch round air cleaner is sitting on an eddy 500 and the top of the cleaner is no more than one point 5 inch from the bonnet when down.
With regards to the heater matrix you could well have a point as the heater does chuck a lot of heat out when required. A point I have just thought of - the heater on a Mk2 Granada always has the coolant running through it, the hot air is either closed off via flaps or open to the cab but the coolant is not controlled at the heater by some sort of tap/valve.
I will try your mole grip trick, however Ford must have slipped up if my heater matrix is still that good after 31 years!!! - still worth a try though.
Thank you both.
Ian, the rad is as above and tight against the slam panel. the fan shroud tight against the rad. Air drawn through the rad cannot escape out the sides it has to go out the rear of the shroud over & around the engine then under the floor. Above the engine there is space but not a lot. A 2-inch thick 14-inch round air cleaner is sitting on an eddy 500 and the top of the cleaner is no more than one point 5 inch from the bonnet when down.
With regards to the heater matrix you could well have a point as the heater does chuck a lot of heat out when required. A point I have just thought of - the heater on a Mk2 Granada always has the coolant running through it, the hot air is either closed off via flaps or open to the cab but the coolant is not controlled at the heater by some sort of tap/valve.
I will try your mole grip trick, however Ford must have slipped up if my heater matrix is still that good after 31 years!!! - still worth a try though.
Thank you both.
Mike B Drives a 1984 Mk2 Granada ghia V8.
-
- Forum Contributor
- Posts: 208
- Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:49 pm
- Location: Markfield, Leicestershire.
Stevie,
The rad shroiud is tight against the rad - all air passing through the rad exits via the engine end of the shroud - not the sides.
I have an electronic temp gauge that measures in Centigrade only. This gauge
can easily be checked using boiling water and its crack on. I have seen it giving a reading of 135 degree C while out & about..
I know antifreeze mixed with water allows temperatures well above normal boiling point but 135 Centigrade seems very high, so I got worried
I honestly don`t know could that temperature be read as "Normal" ??
Ian, tried the mole grip trick - yes it did make a difference but sadly not much. Worth a try though.
The rad shroiud is tight against the rad - all air passing through the rad exits via the engine end of the shroud - not the sides.
I have an electronic temp gauge that measures in Centigrade only. This gauge
can easily be checked using boiling water and its crack on. I have seen it giving a reading of 135 degree C while out & about..
I know antifreeze mixed with water allows temperatures well above normal boiling point but 135 Centigrade seems very high, so I got worried
I honestly don`t know could that temperature be read as "Normal" ??
Ian, tried the mole grip trick - yes it did make a difference but sadly not much. Worth a try though.
Mike B Drives a 1984 Mk2 Granada ghia V8.
-
- Forum Contributor
- Posts: 3979
- Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:22 pm
- Location: Northern Ireland
If you're seeing 135degC, I would not be believing that gauge if the engine is still running correctly.mike-b wrote:Stevie,
The rad shroiud is tight against the rad - all air passing through the rad exits via the engine end of the shroud - not the sides.
I have an electronic temp gauge that measures in Centigrade only. This gauge
can easily be checked using boiling water and its crack on. I have seen it giving a reading of 135 degree C while out & about..
I know antifreeze mixed with water allows temperatures well above normal boiling point but 135 Centigrade seems very high, so I got worried
I honestly don`t know could that temperature be read as "Normal" ??
Ian, tried the mole grip trick - yes it did make a difference but sadly not much. Worth a try though.
You need a proper means of temperature measurement
'Normal' temperature on my SD1 is from about 90-105C. Agreed by the dash gauge and the separate coolant sensor for MegaSquirt. With the high figure only happening in very slow or stationary traffic etc. On the move it runs at the temperature the thermostat opens, ie about 90C.
135C would be well above the boiling point of the coolant IMHO.
The clue is the rad not getting hot all over at normal temp. Means the coolant isn't circulating through it for whatever reason.
135C would be well above the boiling point of the coolant IMHO.
The clue is the rad not getting hot all over at normal temp. Means the coolant isn't circulating through it for whatever reason.
Dave
London SW
Rover SD1 VDP EFI
MegaSquirt2 V3
EDIS8
Tech Edge 2Y
London SW
Rover SD1 VDP EFI
MegaSquirt2 V3
EDIS8
Tech Edge 2Y