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Extra air valve

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:24 pm
by mikeinatruck
Can this rather annoying item removed from a 3.5 flapper set up easily and yet still have a startable engine? Has anyone got any conversions that work?

Also is by passing the over run valve just a matter of joining the two wires together? I have developed a weird engine hunting that goes away if I remove the over run relay and bridge the load side wires out.

Re: Extra air valve

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:00 am
by ramon alban
mikeinatruck wrote:Can this rather annoying item removed from a 3.5 flapper set up easily and yet still have a startable engine? Has anyone got any conversions that work?
Hello Mike,

By and large the EAV is bulletproof, it has the simplest of principles to introduce an appropriate amount of metered air commensurate with warm-up temperature, but it can have a couple of peripheral issues:

# The connecting hoses can perish/harden/split, causing a rogue air leak into the plenum. Thereto lies a source of rough running.

# The somewhat inaccessible connector can corrode/work loose disrupting the internal heating function and the valve stays open too long, raising the idle speed too much after the engine has warmed up.

Either of the above two issues, undiagnosed, can cause an owner to make inappropriate adjustments elsewhere (such as richening the mixture or adjusting the idle speed - respectively) completely upsetting the system from normal running and creating compounded problems to diagnose and resolve.

Check and fix those two issues and the valve should outlast all/most of the other components in the system. A good clean also helps.

Providing an alternative solution to raise the idle speed during warm-up but have no effect when hot, would - IMHO - be more dodgy/unreliable by a country mile than a correctly maintained component and its hoses/connections.

All the above assumes that one wishes to retain the Flapper system principles and not move to hotwire or megasquit.

For more info, read this

http://www.vintagemodelairplane.com/pag ... Air01.html

Re: Extra air valve

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:20 am
by ramon alban
mikeinatruck wrote:Also is by passing the over run valve just a matter of joining the two wires together? I have developed a weird engine hunting that goes away if I remove the over run relay and bridge the load side wires out.
Now that is wierd, Mike!

Basically a vacuum switch senses heavy manifold vacuum on overrun and operates a relay that disconnects the engine running signal from pin 1 of the ECU.

That in turn cuts out the injectors, so no fuel is injected on overrun.

Its essentially an economy and emissions fix.

Doing what you describe has no logical reason for the described effect of calming down a typical hunting problem.

Typical hunting on the flapper is rooted in a slightly over-rich mixture at idle, or some other maladjustment.

For acedemic purposes you can read about the hunting phenomenom here:

http://www.vintagemodelairplane.com/pag ... ons01.html

Out of left field, the only thing I can think of is that the vacuum switch is too sensitive and is cutting in and out at idle, pulsing the cut-out relay and thereby causing the engine to non-combust when the signal is taken away, only to start up again as soon as the vacuum reverts.

Check out the vaccy switch and its connecting hose. Also it electrical connections to the relay.

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:10 am
by mikeinatruck
Thanks for the reply. The relay issue is a bit weird, my manifold vacuum is at 21 at idl, wonder if its too high? To the best of my knowledge everything else is dead on, I have got all the tech pages for flappers so everything has been metered and checked ok.
CO% was set at 3% thereabouts, maybe thats a bit rich but I thought V8's did not like to run too lean?

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:17 am
by ChrisJC
You can get rid of the overrun valve as you say by just connecting the two wires together.

If you get shot of the extra air valve, then the engine will probably start OK, but it won't idle properly (too slow) until it's warmed up.
You can test the theory by blocking the pipes up.

Chris.

Re: Extra air valve

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:41 am
by DaveEFI
mikeinatruck wrote:Can this rather annoying item removed from a 3.5 flapper set up easily and yet still have a startable engine? Has anyone got any conversions that work?

Also is by passing the over run valve just a matter of joining the two wires together? I have developed a weird engine hunting that goes away if I remove the over run relay and bridge the load side wires out.
I've converted my original flapper system to MegaSquirt and have kept the EAV through choice. It's simple and reliable. Later stepper motors are much more troublesome.

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:20 pm
by ramon alban
mikeinatruck wrote: I thought V8's did not like to run too lean?
My own experience is that the ,Efi V8 flapper prefers to run on the lean side. Mine has been thus since 1993 and probably before that too, and never has any issues with conbustion overheating, valve damage, burned plugs, etc.

If you have it running rich at idle, then that may contribute to the hunting phenomenom! Suggest you study the referenced article and the reasons why hunting can be so attributed.

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:17 pm
by mikeinatruck
Did it bit more poking about today, it seems the extra air valve is at fault well the connection anyway, would not close off fully, but after a poke and prod it seems to now, guess i'll know next time I start it. The overun is set to trip at 24 inhg by the book so the hunting might have caused that.

Its a great old girl but no matter what I do I never seem to get it running 'just right' either runs slightly rough or hunts or something else weird. Put the proper BPR6ES plugs back in and two would not fire, put the BP5ES back in its fine...

I think I use more fuel tinkering with it than i do on the road....

Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:51 pm
by ChrisJC
I have also had hunting if the timing isn't quite right.

Worth checking, and that the advance mechanisms are working properly.

Chris.

Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:38 am
by DaveEFI
mikeinatruck wrote:Did it bit more poking about today, it seems the extra air valve is at fault well the connection anyway, would not close off fully, but after a poke and prod it seems to now, guess i'll know next time I start it. The overun is set to trip at 24 inhg by the book so the hunting might have caused that.

Its a great old girl but no matter what I do I never seem to get it running 'just right' either runs slightly rough or hunts or something else weird. Put the proper BPR6ES plugs back in and two would not fire, put the BP5ES back in its fine...

I think I use more fuel tinkering with it than i do on the road....
The EAV only controls idle speed. It opens when the engine is cold - then reacts to a combination of coolant temperature transmitted through its body and an internal heater element. That element should be live all the time the ignition is on. It's a very simple device. If it's sticking, give it a clean.

It doesn't alter the mixture. It does effectively the same as opening the throttle slightly.

Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:23 pm
by ramon alban
mikeinatruck wrote:Its a great old girl but no matter what I do I never seem to get it running 'just right' either runs slightly rough or hunts or something else weird.
Mike - therein lies the fallability of the Original Rover/Bosch/Lucas Flapper System

By and large they are all 25 to 30 years old and for the most part they suffer neglect, simply because the cars/engines/systems are not subject to routine servicing and/or preventative maintenance.

Even if one could find a service agency these days most of the systems are owned by enthusiasts who prefer various forms of DIY.

Sadly tho', mostly those varying forms of DIY tend towards neglect.

Not willful, let me hasten to add, but more like "neglect by omission".

This means that, as in your case, you have just discovered that the connector to the EAV was loose and the system is (possibly) set up to run too rich. You now report a couple of spark plugs being dodgy.

What else might EASILY be overlooked?

Breather galleries and filter restricted,
Plenum interior cleanliness,
Idle air galleries constricted,
Throttle pot lifetime expired,
Fuel pressure off,
Fuel flow restricted by crud in the ageing supply system.
Rogue air leaks,
Cam wear,
Ignition amp lifetime expired, etc

I could go on Ad nausium, but you get the idea?

Search this forum for any of the above subjects and one can learn that they are all commonly experienced problems.

As I say, not willful neglect, these things just happen. So what can you do about it?

# Well, a systematic health check would be one place to start. Try this -

http://www.vintagemodelairplane.com/pag ... wer01.html

# Obtain and study the Efi ops manual,

# Download, print and review at leisure all the Efi component descriptions and test processes from here:

http://www.vintagemodelairplane.com/pag ... er_dl.html

# Keep the oil changes to typically 3-5000 miles for the older V8's

# Scrupulous clealiness of all ignition components

# Purge the fuel system

Again I could go on, but you get the idea

Sure, it takes a bit of time to start over from scratch but - I would wager - if and when the suggested program is undertaken and such faults that exist are eliminated, the total future amount of time spent chasing down multiple fault conditions (the worst of all situations for analysis and diagnosis) will be greatly reduced.

Its at this point one is grateful to the very clever person who discovered that -Time, really is the mechanism that prevents everything happening at once.

Because of this enlightentment one can set up a timely program of discovery and execute it at your leisure, rather that try to to it all at the same time, for which there is never enough time anyway! :D :D :D

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:37 am
by mikeinatruck
Thanks Ramon
I am ahead of you there though this is a V8 conversion so has had a lot of things checked as I rebuilt, fuel pressure is good has a rising rate regulator, throttle position switch is new, butterfly gap is correct, air flow meter is in spec,, galleries and plenum are not spotless but certainly not gummedup. Oilc changes every 5000? Mine gets done at least twice a year which is about every 100 miles LOL it gets serious off road abuse.

I am going to look into my ignition system next, I have a new dizzy on it it has the the three pin amp/ecu on the side of it. What is the correct coil for this? Mine says electronic on it but wondering if I have the wrong one?

Hmmmm
Primary coil resistance 1 ohm
Secondary 4.4k ohm
Think i might need a new one...

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:30 pm
by ramon alban
mikeinatruck wrote: fuel pressure is good has a rising rate regulator, throttle position switch is new, butterfly gap is correct, air flow meter is in spec,, galleries and plenum are not spotless but certainly not gummedup. Oilc changes every 5000?

I am going to look into my ignition system next, I have a new dizzy on it it has the the three pin amp/ecu on the side of it. What is the correct coil for this?
Its good that you are ahead of the game there, Mike. and clearly confident of the work already carried out will not need to be re-scrutinised.

One of the difficulties with any remote diagnosis process is that one is completely unfamiliar with the mods/changes that may have been introduced with the propblem system.

That always leaves me (in my style) simply offering a reasonable route to long term solution that very much depends upon the owner knowing what he has got, knowing what he has done and following the diagnostic route set down.

Thus by implication requiring the owner to re-review the advice variously offered to see what has not yet been done or to try and understand the fallability of what modifications have been made that might upset a standard system.

On that latter point, by way of example, a rising rate fuel pressure regulator will vary fuel pressure in a completely different way to the OE fitment. It can also be setup with a different baseline pressure than originally intended and expected.

The question that poses, then, is whether the fuel pressure at idle is matched to the settiings of the AFM and the ECU. Who knows? I dont, and in all probability neither do you.

That means that one is left with the probability that with a RRFPR, the engine may not be capable of being set up as per ORIGINAL.

If the pressure is too high - at idle- therein lies a possible cause of hunting, as you will have already studied and read about.

Moving onto the coil.

Essentially there are two systems, needing different coils.

Ballasted system needing a 9 volt coil and unballasted, needing a 12 volt coil. Your system is almost cetainly unballasted and thus you need a 12 volt coil. If you fitted any old available coil that might result in two similar situations.

A 9 volt coild would become overstressed (and eventually fail) and also produce a HT voltage that is too high for the rest of the sytsem causing a propensity for arcing and/or tracking, thus misfiring.

Or maybe the coil is a high performance 12 volt unit also giving way too much HT voltage for the rest of the system, giving similar problems to those just described.

What would I advise? Well, if you have a normal performance ignition system with original equipment plugs and HT leads, then fit a standard OEM or equivalent 12 volt coil.

Conversely. If you FANCY fitting higher performace coil, then be sure that your HT plug leads, connectors, boots, shrouds and plugs are suitably matched.

Expressed in the simplest of all terms. The OEM equipment was perfectly adequate when these cars left the showroom. It didn't fail, arc, track or leak high tension voltage. Kept clean and bright it would continue to operate thus for many, many years.

HOWEVER.

Lets say, for sake of argument, a PO fitted a high performance coil because "it seemed like a good idea" and the guy down the pub, said it worked for him - what might happen?

Well the extra "5 or 10 thousand volts" intended to give a bigger and fatter spark, now stresses the whole of the HT system from the king lead thro the dissy cap to the plug leads and the various connectors and shrouds.

That, in turn, causes arcing and carbon tracking, often made worse by unresolved damp and dirt. You get the idea?

So the bottom line it this: Whatever coil you fit, make sure it matches the capability of the remainder of the system, which in your case is probably going to be a standard OEM item or its equivalent, unless of couse you have info to the contrary.

Regarding the new dizzy with a 3 pin connector, I am not familiar with the arrangement, so others will be better placed to advise, but whatever the connections, the basic circuit will be very similar to this.

Image

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:06 am
by mikeinatruck
ramon, You certainly know your V8's thanks for the excellent replies, either that or you are a typing addict? :)

I understand about remote diagnosis I get it a lot for other things of which I am knowledgable but I still hate ' the thing by the red thing is loose' anyway I digress.

The rising rate fuel reg is set to give the correct pressure at tickover and the fuel pressure gauge backs that up, it just increases the fuel pressure on throttle opening mometarily, but I am sure you have seen them before.

The whole system is still pretty much OEM the engine came from a Classic Range Rover, the only change being a new dizzy that did away with the old constant energy setup, the big alloy box with coil attached and now uses the later dizzy with the amp on the side. They used to be two pins not they are three but only two pins used, weird but there you go.

I went to my landy spares place today and asked for a coil to suit the the engine and according to their system its a ballasted coil, I got home fitted it and it wont start! Now either my system does not like a ballasted coil or I got a duff one?? anyway will check tomorrow and refit the original.

I measured the resistance on the new one and the primary was 1 ohm and the secondary 10k or there abouts, substantially more than my old coil...

I am probably chasing my tail and it may just be tired but the hydraulic tappets are pretty quiet I have rplaced the timing chain a gears, oil pressure is great, never goes below 10psi even when red hot.
Wiring is all still good, great earths and can handle water rather well.

Anyway I will check the coil again and make sure it still runs on the old one and try another non ballasted one.

Here is a picture of the engine in situ, since this was taken the air filter has been moved and is now on a pipe that is the correct length, this setup actually worked ok though.

Image[/img]

Actually got a new bulkhead now as well.

Image

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:03 am
by ramon alban
Interesting pictures, Mike. Like the truck. :D

On the Rover SD1 the air intake can was positioned to allow air at ambient temperature, and dew point, to enter the engine.

On your set-up, one might imagine that the air entering the engine is quite a bit hotter than ambient. It might also be quite Dry.

I'm not entirely sure of the reasons why, but my engine always seems to run and pull better in COLD DAMP conditions.

Something to do with air density, etc, or was it due to the extra oxygen carried in by the excess moisture? who knows?

But then, as the AFM has an air temperature correction, one would expect the ECU to sort things out. Even so the phenomenom is real and noticable.

Also, one might imagine that the balance of the Flap in the AFM when mounted vertically as your is might be different to the way it is mounted in the SD1.

If you sketch out the actual physical position of the flap and its compensating flap inside the damping chamber (fixed at 90 degrees), they are NOT a balanced item when mounted vertically.

To my mind the very delicate spring arrangement innards, may not be able to deal with that situation

Now I have no idea as to whether it makes a difference, but if it does, with gravity acting variously and differently on the mass of the two flaps, then the mixture will probably be affected.

Further! The use of a K&N filter has, in some recent SD1 discussions, been thought to be detremental to the RV8 air flow characteristics - being as I understand it - more restrictive to air flow compared to the OE (on SD1's that is).

Something else, not entirely clear but worth mentioning. Is the AFM mounted on the Engine? If so it will be subject to vibration, not originally intended.

Another something else - originally - at least on the SD1 the AFM is mounted on rubber bushes for two reasons. 1 to minimise shock and vibration, but 2, to ensure that the AFM body is NOT grounded to chassis or engine.

Everything related to the AFM mountings resulted in the body NOT being grounded. Even the air can (on the SD1, at least) was mounted on rubber bushes. Apparantly, if grounded, it upsets the circuitry.

Just thinking out loud with little or no conclusive opinion. :roll: