Defurring the Cooling System

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richardpope50
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Re: Defurring the Cooling System

Post by richardpope50 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:34 am

Good idea and will try this as I have the rad off making the inner cowling at the moment.

(Thanks all. Eye op (two weeks) will mean 2 months not being able to see well & may have to have same on other eye as well.)


Richard.
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Re: Defurring the Cooling System

Post by SuperV8 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:11 pm

Hope the op went ok..
My theory is .. Return water from rad enters pump via inlet tube in pump. Water comes out via centre of impella and the pump spins to circulate via both left and right channels in above photo. (or does water flow one way left to right / right to left?). Anyway ..
The water pump is just a centrifugal pump, water enters in the centre gets accelerated and then pushed out both sides into the block equally.
My car also sits for most of the winter not running so would be interesting to see how mine looks inside. Not sure why your imperror corroded so much as you had antifreeze/corrosion inhibitor?

Tom.
Dax Rush 4.6 supercharged V8 MSII

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Re: Defurring the Cooling System

Post by richardpope50 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:03 pm

Appreciate all your wishes ... don't want to bore you with my personal details but turned up last week for op and sent home. Actually, I have a macular hole (in both eyes) and 5% can repair themselves. Last July I turned up for same op and scan revealed mine had started to repair themselves so sent home. September scan showed improvement but December showed two holes back again so last week's op planned. Just have to wait for next scan in March. Consultant has never seen this and is thinking of writing a paper on me especially as one eye's hole is 4 1/2 years old and should never heal.

However on to more interesting topic as I have made some progress....

Finished making internal cowling and put it al back together but with my original (cheapish) fan as my high speed Kenlowe would not fit. I also flushed out the engine block and just clean water came out, Tidy up of the white stuff you see in above photos (not really much at all) and as far as I can tell all engine waterways are really clear.

So I now have a fan sucking across the whole of the rad. It even holds a piece of paper in each corner and indeed all over the place.

Fired up engine for over half an hour and the fan kept the temperature at 92 degrees. Did not move from here at all. Mind you, did not cool back down to switch off fan either. This is in fact cooler than the Kenlowe fan sucking through centre section so progress (a bit).

As car is off the road until April, I just have to sit and wait. However my next step is, assuming road test does not improve much, to swap cheap 780 cf/m fan with a high speed slimline Revotec at 1,300cf/m one keeping same cowling. However on this point a friend has calculated that at 60 mph I have 6,600cf/m ram effect so perhaps a better fan is not needed (expect in traffic)

I also plan to install an oil cooler. This will have to fit behind the rad and in front of the engine but I will fit 2 x 6" fans on this oil cooler so even though warm air passes through it, the fans should help. As I have removed one stage from the fan circuits (Kenlowe was two fans in one) I can use this spare circuit to power the oil cooler fans.

Finally, I have sent off the temperature gauge for repair so that should soon be accurate.
Richard.
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Re: Defurring the Cooling System

Post by richardpope50 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:14 pm

Oh. Additional drama. Bought new TVR pump with roller bearings and also a stainless steel kit of bolts.

The bolt kit included 2 x 5" x 5/16" and 1 x 4 3/8" x 5/16". However my old ones were 3 x 4 5/8" x 5/16".

Checked with supplier (eBay guy) twice and he insisted his were 100% correct and I did not need to replace the short bolt. He did offer to replace short one with a 5" one but wanted me to send off the short one first but said I did not need to - hassle and my op was due.

Torqued up to correct 21nm and stripped thread in block(!) where short one was obviously too short. As this was last week I temporary replaced short bolt with old one and it is holding without leaks.

Always trust your own questions, not other's who answer. Not impressed. ebay guy still insists short bolt is correct.
Richard.
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Re: Defurring the Cooling System

Post by Ian Anderson » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:46 pm

Hey Richard
Sounds like an improvement on the cooling, what temperature is your thermostat? Could it be a 92 degree one? And basically that is where the thing is regulating your temperature?

If you pulled a wire of the fan and the temp went up to say 97 and reconnected the fan would it bring the temp back down to 92?

That said the flow of air does seem a bit low. Normally about 20mph and the fan becomes obsolete as natural flow will at least match the fan pull. If 6600 cfm at 60 at 20 it will be approx2200 natural flow!

Good luck with the eyes, I too have a condition, Kerataconus and could eventually need corneal transplants, not something that floats my boat, presumably you are at Moorfields, now if you get hold of https://www.city.ac.uk/health/facilities/city-sight. And let them know your diagnosis and say you are ok to be a Guineapig, they will ask you to come in and do a full diagnosis on you with specialists and professors who train the new surgeons, in exchange thay ask you to be a Guineapig and have their students review your case so they can diagnose similar one later on. Really nice bunch and will give you a second opinion.
Of course just my 2c worth. City Uni and Morefields work together and so can possibly suggest options.

Ian
Owner of an "On the Road" GT40 Replica by DAX powered by 3.9Hotwre Efi, worked over by DJ Motors. EFi Working but still does some kangaroo at low revs (Damn the speed limits) In to paint shop 18/03/08.

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Re: Defurring the Cooling System

Post by richardpope50 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:12 pm

Hi Ian,

Thermostat is 74 degree one.

ECU controls fan and is set 92 on, 87 off.

Never thought about disconnecting fan lead. Good idea and will try it but car is all wrapped up at the moment.

Fan is a cheap one so that's why it is a 870cf/m one. Yes, fan redundant at 20mph plus but why then is engine getting hot at 70mph as per my graph plotting a few pages above? I just think it is in need of an oil cooler and a higher capacity fan for traffic. To me next logical step.

Sorry to hear about your eyes too. I'm at Redhill (East Surrey) hospital and under their senior consultant - very nce guy. I had wondered about a second opinion but as my eyes are currently healing on their own I will wait. As I said, I was at this stage in September then went backwards with the only difference a flight to Spain so now not flying for six months in case that had something to do with it. I actually have extreemly good vision in one eye (6/9) and that is very unusual too in fact considered impossible. I also wondered if the fear of an operation caused it to heal on its own!!
Richard.
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Re: Defurring the Cooling System

Post by SuperV8 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:14 pm

Thermostat is 74 degree one.

ECU controls fan and is set 92 on, 87 off.

Never thought about disconnecting fan lead. Good idea and will try it but car is all wrapped up at the moment.

Fan is a cheap one so that's why it is a 870cf/m one. Yes, fan redundant at 20mph plus but why then is engine getting hot at 70mph as per my graph plotting a few pages above? I just think it is in need of an oil cooler and a higher capacity fan for traffic. To me next logical step.
Thinking out loud about thermostat's and engine fans;
In effect we have two thermostats trying to control the engine temperature.
If you had a big enough radiator, running a 74 deg engine stat would see the engine running at arround this temp.
As your rad is marginal in size the thermostat is basically open and the engine temp is relying on the thermostat for the fan, which can't be very accurate/quick to respond?
Do you really want to run an engine temp of 74? or was that in a bid to try and help with your cooling problems?

If your car is overheating at 70 mph it's can't be anything to do with your fan.
My car is a Rush, with 4.6 so basically the same engine, yours is slightly longer stroke which may add a little more heat (probably negligible) but mines driving a supercharger so that extra parasitic load probably more than makes up for the slight extra heat that yours might make. Using a standard Dax Ali rad, standard serp water pump, intercooler covering half the rad, and when cruising arround from 20 to 70+ my engine temps never concern me - from memory arround 90 deg. My cooling I would say is only marginal in traffic on a hot summers day upto, I see upto 100-105, but I only have space for a slim fan (which is not a high output fan by any means and is cheap).
Oh and I don't have an oil cooler, as from my witnessed oil temps I haven't needed one. Max oil temp I have seen (hot summers day in traffic) was 110 which is fine for my oil. Haven't done any track days.

I really think there's something more fundamental with your cooling system for it to overheat at 70.
Can you post some pics of your cooling system/layout?
Still not convinced from that picture of the inside of the pump showing that definite witness line of coolant that its not air related?

Tom.
Last edited by SuperV8 on Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Defurring the Cooling System

Post by DaveEFI » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:20 pm

I'd agree about the oil cooler. Pal has an SD1 with a 4.6 engine, and reckons his oil cooler is never needed, by the oil temperature gauge.
I'd also agree there is something very odd with Richard's car. If the rad is the correct size and getting airflow over it, it shouldn't overheat once moving at normal speeds. Fans are only needed when near stationary.
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Re: Defurring the Cooling System

Post by richardpope50 » Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:42 pm

Well the saga can now conclude!

I first got my temp gauge calibrated by the manufacturer – CAI – who reported that the sender was faulty but confirmed a full calibration test. Great, I now know the temperature from two accurate senders.

So last winter I then made up an inner cowl to ensure the fan sucked air from the whole of the radiator area. It worked great at tick-over keeping the temp at 90 degrees. However, I realised that when driving the ram force could not blow enough air through the now restricted fan opening so it would overheat. Plan thus scrapped!

I next decided to fit an oil cooler. Only place I could fit it was immediately behind rad fan. Still it reduced oil temp by 10 degrees so some success.

Now my normal working temp was 100 – 110 with 115(err +) on one motorway test. Ugh!

A friend suggested turning my rad into a two way one by placing a simple baffle plate in the middle of the header tank and moving the outlet to the top. This had helped him no end. What a good idea ….

Couple of weeks ago I took the radiator to have this done and got an immediate phone call to say the rad was blocked!

Image


Where did that come from? No option but to have a new rad made and at the same time made it into a two-way rad.

Image

Image

Now originally I installed a very old 3.5 RV8 to get the car through the IVA test (without a CAT requirement). Whilst I do not remember flushing the engine through, it obviously was drained so could this be the source?

Some years ago when I first had cooling issues I took the bottom off the rad and found this blockage.

Image

At the time I tried to clear it out by using a rod to clear the tubes. This would have pushed the gunge into the header tank although I tried to clean that too. I had assumed I had solved the blockage but obviously not. Indeed, the blockage just got worse as per above photo.

New rad works fine. Normal engine temp is between 75 and 80 degrees. Tick-over reaches 90 then fan cools it back down to 85 (as it is programmed to do). Oil runs at around 80 – 85 degrees. I have not yet done a motorway test but am confident it is all OK. Thermostat is 74 degrees one.

Hmm. Now thinking of starting a new thread ... “My Engine Runs Cool, How Do I warm It Up?” (Only kidding.)

Well chuffed.
Richard.
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Re: Defurring the Cooling System

Post by scudderfish » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:25 pm

Excellent news :)

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Re: Defurring the Cooling System

Post by SuperV8 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:26 pm

Great news, thought it had to be something fundamental - and a blocked rad it quite fundamental :o

Tom.
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Re: Defurring the Cooling System

Post by SuperV8 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:39 pm

Not to throw a spanner in the works!!! but just noticed in the second photo your outlet is at the top of the rad.
I though the outlet needed to be at the bottom where its cooler? Taking the outlet from the top will be hotter coolant than the bottom as heat rises.

Tom.
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Re: Defurring the Cooling System

Post by DEVONMAN » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:31 pm

SuperV8 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:39 pm
Not to throw a spanner in the works!!! but just noticed in the second photo your outlet is at the top of the rad.
I though the outlet needed to be at the bottom where its cooler? Taking the outlet from the top will be hotter coolant than the bottom as heat rises.

Tom.
Your point would be fully valid if this was a thermosyphon system like used in cooling systems of many early flathead engines. As there is a pump involved this ensures flow and little relies on convection. The rad now fitted seems to have a baffle in the top tank and flow is down one side and up the other and flow out of the rad will be at it's coolest at the top outlet due to the effects of the air passing through the rad. This design of rad normally is fitted flipped through 90 degrees with the inlet at the top and the outlet at the bottom on the same side but as installed it seems to work well in this application based on the results reported.
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Re: Defurring the Cooling System

Post by richardpope50 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:37 pm

Yep, baffle stops water half way so whilst total cooling area is same, it's a double pass. Ineed as the fan cools only the central area, now the water in effect gets cooled twice. Ignoring the blockage, water would usually find a short cut and could easilly miss the fan area. For example the pumped flow could force water across from top right of header tank to top left and down other side to outlet at bottom right missing a large chunk of the cooling area. This arrangement now stops this.

On albeit two trips out the temp has really only been showing at 70 plus a bit degrees. As thermostat is a 74 degree one it could be that the rad now keeps the whole thing very cool indeed. It reached 80 when I got out to put it in the garage and fan never came on. It reached 90 when I did an idle test and fan reduced this down to 85 (as it should) and turned fan off.

As I said, well chuffed.
Richard.
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Re: Defurring the Cooling System

Post by richardpope50 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:43 pm

DEVONMAN wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:31 pm
his design of rad normally is fitted flipped through 90 degrees with the inlet at the top and the outlet at the bottom on the same side but as installed it seems to work well in this application based on the results reported.
Yep, correct and was considered. But in my case the header tank and bottom tank is basically out of any air stream flow so if I did flip it, I would have less cooling surface.

Also, in my case the engine's water pump is midway up the rad so swapping outlet to top actually may help the flow as the pump does not have to suck water up but suck it down. (May be an arguable point.)
Richard.
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