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Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:04 am
by kiwicar
mgbv8 wrote:A strobe on wasted spark will give you a shed load of error wont it??
Can someone explain this one please. . . and also why it never appears in the limited documentation with MSQ/Extra efi and tuner studio, what is the error? Why does it result in a retardation of the fixed timing in tuner studio? Even more importantly how do I get an accurately set up ignition without having to hire someone from a tuning company who is told this information? Why does it not happen with motorcycle ignition systems that are all wasted spark?
Sorry this is really beginning to hack me off all I wanted initially was accurate ignition timing and a rev counter, it looks like I can have neither despite now having spent a small fortune on the set up bought add on boxes that dont't seem to do anything and now being in position of a full test rig which in true MSQ style has no/rubbish documentation.
best regards
Mike
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:19 am
by stevieturbo
The wasted spark timing issue applies to all engines with crank only triggers and wasted spark. It has nothing to do with megasquirt and certainly doesn't require a professional.
If they choose to hide that info from its users.....I've no idea why. It's basic stuff. Just test as I said
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:51 am
by Coops
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:08 am
by DaveEFI
kiwicar wrote:mgbv8 wrote:A strobe on wasted spark will give you a shed load of error wont it??
Can someone explain this one please. . . and also why it never appears in the limited documentation with MSQ/Extra efi and tuner studio, what is the error? Why does it result in a retardation of the fixed timing in tuner studio? Even more importantly how do I get an accurately set up ignition without having to hire someone from a tuning company who is told this information? Why does it not happen with motorcycle ignition systems that are all wasted spark?
Sorry this is really beginning to hack me off all I wanted initially was accurate ignition timing and a rev counter, it looks like I can have neither despite now having spent a small fortune on the set up bought add on boxes that dont't seem to do anything and now being in position of a full test rig which in true MSQ style has no/rubbish documentation.
best regards
Mike
As far as I'm aware, the only problem with checking wasted spark with the timing light is down to some types of 'smart' timing lights - where you can dial in an advance setting. For vehicles which have no timing scale - only a TDC mark. My Krypton one with dial doesn't work at all with EDIS - but my earlier basic one works normally. I've not seen the theory behind this explained.
As regards getting an older rev counter (the type that takes its pulse from a single coil) to work with wasted spark, I'd agree it can be a pain - although I've not tried a commercial adaptor. I tried all the circuits MS gives with limited success so eventually build a new driver for my SD1 Smiths tach, which is easier to do than with some as it is a open frame unit, rather than being in a self contained case.
However, a pal got the same unit to work off EDIS by playing with pull up/down resistors on the output of the basic diode arrangement MS documents.
From the out I'd decided I didn't want to use the diodes from all four coils as it would make my EDIS loom untidy, so concentrated on getting it to work from the EDIS unit tach output. Which should be about the same as an MS3 tach output. But I do realise not all like playing with electronics as I do.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:25 am
by Eliot
kiwicar wrote:mgbv8 wrote:A strobe on wasted spark will give you a shed load of error wont it??
Can someone explain this one please. . . and also why it never appears in the limited documentation with MSQ/Extra efi and tuner studio, what is the error? Why does it result in a retardation of the fixed timing in tuner studio? Even more importantly how do I get an accurately set up ignition without having to hire someone from a tuning company who is told this information? Why does it not happen with motorcycle ignition systems that are all wasted spark?
Sorry this is really beginning to hack me off all I wanted initially was accurate ignition timing and a rev counter, it looks like I can have neither despite now having spent a small fortune on the set up bought add on boxes that dont't seem to do anything and now being in position of a full test rig which in true MSQ style has no/rubbish documentation.
best regards
Mike
I've not read the MS documentation for years, it must be in there somewhere. Phil Ringwood will remember all this stuff in place of my fading memory, as it became a topic when megasquirt and spark was being introduced.
Maybe modern dialback strobes understand wasted spark now, but back in the day there was a problem with the strobe lights where you could enter an advance figure (dialback) which would get confused with wasted spark setups (because you get two sparks per cycle).
Luckily my strobe long is a very basic light (30 year old gunson thing) and i use a timing tape attached to the damper (which you can make yourself) and read of the actual advance.
So that's about all we are talking about - no black magic / vudoo stuff.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:56 am
by Eliot
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:32 pm
by DaveEFI
My 'smart' timing light - which used inductive coupling to the plug wire - wouldn't work at all on EDIS regardless of where the dial was set. Triggered randomly. But worked just fine with the original dizzy. My older unit which had a direct connection to the plug terminal is fine. But I've no idea why.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:09 pm
by Eliot
DaveEFI wrote:. My older unit which had a direct connection to the plug terminal is fine. But I've no idea why.
Which is the same as my 30 year old gunson's light.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:53 pm
by kiwicar
OK
it looks like rather by luck than judgment I have avoided that one, I took out all the advance on the ECU and checked it on the damper using the timing light and did not use the dial back feature whilst cranking it over on the starter. It does however explain some of the strange results earlier in the year.
Best regards
Mike
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:51 pm
by stevieturbo
Just dont make it complicated when it doesnt need to be complicated.
If for whatever reason you cannot baseline at zero degrees.
Baseline at 10deg and see what the light flashes.
Then change this to say 15deg. It will either be correct, or be higher. if higher, then both first and second tests should follow the pattern that both read exactly double what you thought you would see.
Either way you then know if your missing tooth info is correct or not.
I'd like to hope that nobody would ever just take a single reading and assume their setup is correct from that.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:37 pm
by Coops
welded up the caltrac brackets at last today,
Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:29 pm
by Coops
Caltracs all fitted ,
spring bushes fitted,
How it should end up,
Fitted PHEW!!!!
View from under the car
,
Side shot,
Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:26 pm
by Coops
One happy bunny,
now the timing is set correctly its a totally different car,
Shaun came down this evening set the timing, remapped the car on dual maps now and tweaked a few other bits and bobs, runs real sweet now, best it ever has been and runs smooth,
he measured max boost @5820rpm just shy of 14psi bar a couple of didgits, he said its way closer to 14 than 13 lol,
The torque is heaps more too now,
Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:31 pm
by stevieturbo
Good to hear. Although lucky no damage was caused from it being wrong !
But I do have to ask, why was timing never checked ? It really is the first thing that should be done with any new ecu install as soon as the engine does run.
And now you know why the car was overheating too. Timing far too retarded.
Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:34 pm
by Coops
was a school boy error mate,
I totally forgot about the two pulses,
But all sorted now,
had to drop the timing down to 10 degrees on boost as we detected a slight knock after the ecu was set correct,
so the timing is basicly what it was before the ecu was set right if you get what I mean lol,