The V8 Owners Forum -

Using calc above for some published figures they come out at about 140

2400cc 740BHP@ 19,000 rpm

Run the Carl Hansen Wildcat figures from the back of the Des Hammill book through and see what you think for a two valve push rod.

Andrew

what system you thinking about getting?

burgesstuning wrote:
We are in the process of buying a modern eddy brake rolling road, we feel we have to move into the 21st century We will store and publish all the graphs we end up with...especially any V8 stuff for you allto mull over. It will be a sad day to sell my old Clayton Rolling Road, I have used it for 24 years!

Peter

Now this is a very strange thing but that must be the peter burgess who used to visit me at RAT when I was at Martly.
You always knew your stuff and your B heads were VERY good.
By a bizarre twist of fate I find myself wanting an old wanky clayton rollers set for my barn up here in cumbria so I can potter around with my experiments until senility finally overtakes me!
I'd love to hear from you so let me know if you have the 400set like I used to and maybe I'll come and visit you.
All the very best. G

Must say very interesting thread...

Just one part I don't understand, how you can get more than 100% VE? I understand with clever tuning and pulse effect may be able to get just a little over but how would you get 120-140% without forced induction?

Tom.

This is a link to the dyno we are in the process of buying

http://dynocom.eu/catalog/detail2b99.html

Peter

To try and keep the reply short.... Its about mass flow and the fact that air is heavy stuff especially when loaded with fuel and when it gets moving it does not want to stop. Jolly good for us as we can use this energy to our advantage.

With good exhaust scavenging there may be a partial vacuum in the cylinder to get things moving quickly as soon as the valve opens so it starts to fill the cylinder/combustion chamber before the piston is at TDC. The port efficiency fills the cylinder effectively and gets a good gas velocity in the charge that keeps the mass of air in motion due to the momentum its gained and filling the cylinder even after BDC.

The mass flow velocity is the key - too big a port and the mass does not get sufficient velocity to give the gas that much needed momentum - too small a port and there is a restriction to flow all the way through the intake stroke never allowing 100% filling of the cylinder.

The 120/130 % VE's are usually the realm of high revving engines 9000 + rpm

Andrew

SuperV8 wrote:Must say very interesting thread...

Just one part I don't understand, how you can get more than 100% VE? I understand with clever tuning and pulse effect may be able to get just a little over but how would you get 120-140% without forced induction?

Tom.

So what's the rate for a forum Dyno day to help break it in for you when its all up and running

Andrew

burgesstuning wrote:This is a link to the dyno we are in the process of buying

http://dynocom.eu/catalog/detail2b99.html

Peter

Thanks Andrew, completly understood.



Tom.

Once I get the hang of the new rollers....when they arrive, that is ....I will sort a price for you. I do not do weekends though out of respect for my neighbours.

Don't leave it too long if anyone wants to check the old rollers with a view to purchasing them.

Peter

> Here you go from the Merlin head post - thanks to V8bloke

Thanks for the Merlin pictures. Any chance I could get you to take some
measurements? I've recently updated to the latest version of Dynomation
and am building a Rover/Buick simulation database. I've gotten pretty
good results with the program predicting a small block Ford V8 we dyno
tested. It made 468 HP at 5500 RPM on the dyno. Dynomation predicted
470 HP @ 5500 RPM. It got the RPM at torque peak correct too, though the
figures were optimistic by 15 ft-lbs or so.

The specific information I need is:

intake and exhaust runner lengths
intake and exhaust flange areas
intake and exhaust minimum areas

The runner lengths are best measured from the valve seat to port flange
using a piece of solder. Measure the distance across the port roof and
port floor (short side radius) and take the average. The minimum areas
are generally just below the seat area in the throat. I use a snap gauge
and a micrometer. I've got the data for unported Rover 3.5L heads (from
a TR8) and unported and ported Buick 300, along with a set of GM Indy
215 race heads (developed for Mickey Thompson's 1962 Indy effort, they
are essentially Buick 215 chambers combined with Buick 300 ports). I
also have the data for several intake manifolds (Buick 215 4 barrel dual
plane, Offenhauser Dual Port, Edelbrock Performer Rover dual plane,
Huffacker single plane, Willpower single plane and GM 2x4 barrel).
I've got some cam data as well (Crower and Erson) and will be expanding
the cam data later.

Once I have the information I need, I'll be running a series of simulations
to compare various displacements and cylinder head combos. I'll be happy
to share the results. The simulations will be used to design the camshaft
I'll be running in a Rover 4.2L I'll be dynoing this year. BTW, the ported
Buick 300 cylinder head flow numbers on the first page are from my heads.
I have additional flow numbers for these heads with intake manifolds
attached. If anyone is interested, I can post them.

I see the Merlin intake flow plots. Does anyone have similar info fo the
exhaust?

Thanks Much,
Dan Jones

> Its a pity that the test depression is not stated as without it the figures
> do not mean very much but hopefuly that will become apparent in due course,
> however from the work done on the bench today it would look like the figures
> are at 28" or above

The flow numbers for the ported Buick 300 heads were taken on a Superflow
bench at 28" H2O with a clayed intake radius but no exhaust pipe. Heads
were ported by Jon Carls of JDC Engineering in Minonk, Illinois USA. Valves
are 6000 Series Ferrea Buick V6 Stage 1 valves. Intake valves are part number
F6238 (1.775" head diameter, 11/32" stem, 4.735" long with a 0.271" tip).
Exhausts are part number F6237 (1.5" head diameter, 11/32" stem, 4.735" long
with a 0.254" tip). Intake head shape is a 10 degree Super Flo. Exhaust is
a 29 degree tulip. Ferreas 6000 Series valves are competition parts suitable
for solid roller cams. The larger valves required larger seats, p/n 30903
for the intake and p/n 30647 for the exhaust.

Here's a comparison of the flow with an unported Buick 300 head.

Valve Buick 30...........Buick 300
Lift 1964....................1964
(inch) aluminum............aluminum
ported..............unported
Int Exh..........Int Exh
1.775" 1.5".........1.625" 1.312"

0.100...66....47
0.150...99....82
0.200..129...104...........105.....96
0.250..155...119
0.300..174...130...........135....108
0.350..187...139
0.400..191...146...........142....115
0.450..194...150
0.500..196...152...........149....115
0.550..200...153
0.600..200...153...........154....116

I have pictures I can post once I figure out how to do it on this forum.
I thought the valve OD would need to be reduced slightly but they just
fit. I gave Jon a junk head to experiment on and he said he actually
pulled better numbers on the test head but he stayed conservative on my
heads. I can see spots where he intentionally went through the aluminum
into the water jacket on the test head. The ported heads are destined
for a street application, so it was important to leave adequate wall
thickness. I'm pleased with the results. The exhaust to intake flow
ratio is good and the low and mid-lift numbers are excellent. Pretty
good for such a small valve head and should support my HP goals.

Some additional flow numbers for Buick 300 heads from my database:

Valve 1964 Buick 300....1964 Buick 300
Lift aluminum heads....aluminum heads
(inch) stock unported....light port
Intake..Exhaust...Intake Exhaust
1.625"..1.312" 1.625"..1.312"

0.200....90.4....67.5.....114.2....79.4
0.300...129.4....89.5.....151.....107.6
0.400...138.3...101.1.....158.6...123.2
0.450...138.6...103.2.....159.2...126.6
0.500...139.....104.7.....159.8...128.9
0.550...139.....106.......160.....130.1

Both were taken at 28". The stock Buick 300 head flow was provided by
Dan Lagrou of D&D Fabrications. y unported Buick 300 heads flowed a
bit better than Dan LaGrou's. That may be due to bench differences but
is likely due to the fact that my unported 300 heads were rebuilt with
a good valve job. The lightly ported Buick 300 were from a shop local
to me that is no longer in business. This is the same shop the unported
and Stage 4 ported Rover 3.9L head flow referenced on the first page of
this thread came from.

Dan Jones

Dan,

To post pics you have to host them on Photobucket or similar which I think you have then copy and paste in the link.

Looking at your second set of figures for the lightly ported 300 heads made me wonder what sort of flow I should expect from my 300 heads.

I fitted 1.63" Inlets and 1.4" Ex waisted stem valves, opened up the seats to valve seat size and blended in the area below the seat and the bowl areas and reduced the guide down to around a 1/4" in the port.

I left the port runners virtually as cast and just cleaned up any excessive casting flash.
These are on my 4.35 engine.

Any idea what they should flow approx?

Kevin.

I'd guess your heads are probably a bit better than the light port Buick 300 flow numbers, particularly on the exhaust side where you have a larger valve but not as good as the Stage 4 Rover 3.9L numbers.

Dan Jones

Dan.

Thanks thats about what I was aiming for.

Heres a link to the Dynomation simulator Dan mentioned above, it is very impressive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-ovimxRXN8

Kevin.

Dan
My Merlin heads are now fitted so cant really take measurements for a while.
Will let you know as soon as I can.

Mark