Anyone made their own anti-tramp bars? Or 3/4-link kit?

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mgbv8
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Post by mgbv8 »

Are you going to race the B on a circuit or use it for sprinting?



Perry Stephenson

MGB GT + Rover V8

9.62 @ 137.37mph

Now looking for 8 seconds with a SBC engine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVscbPHgue0&list=UUqIlXfSAoiZ--GyG4tfRrjw



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg3avnsNKrc&index=2&list=FLqIlXfSAoiZ--GyG4tfRrjw

chodjinn
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Post by chodjinn »

mgbv8 wrote:Are you going to race the B on a circuit or use it for sprinting?
Do you mean sprinting as in straight line drags or short sprints? :D

I just want the 'B to handle well, and almost all of the racing MGBs I have seen use fixed rose-jointed anti-tramp bars, rather than the caltracs style which seem to be geared purely towards acceleration - fancy slapper bars as such.

The circuit style racers seem to favour a rear anti-roll bar as well, but I'm going to leave that and see how it handles with an axle location kit and tramp-bar type things.

As for me, I generally plan to use if for track days (until the skyline is done - ha!) and fast road. Hell I may even use it to drive to work in occassionally lol. I won't be eligible for anything other than an open class in whatever motorsport I'd like to do due to the modifications.
RIP MGB V8 .... served me well as a learning curve.

R32 Skyline V8 .... this one is gonna be a monster!

kiwicar
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Post by kiwicar »

Hi
two thing come to mind for me, first how much power are you thinking will be going through the back axle, will it be enough to cause axle tramp? secondly if the answer is yes then have you explored the other options because slapper bars and caltec type arrangement both effectively rely for operation on locking part of the spring solid, all be it in the case of the caltec doing it progressively. If you are part way round a corner and add a good chunk of power to exit you may have interesting effects of instantaneous grip :shock: If it is a handling car I would consider a conversion to coil overs and a 4 of 5 link set up, if you want to keep cart springs then thing seriously about a '70s escort Mexico set up where the springs were puy into slider boxes either end and again location was done by a 5 link system.
If it is only going to see a normally aspirated rover can't you just put it on telescopic dampers and have one located in front of the axle and one behind.
Best regards
Mike
poppet valves rule!

chodjinn
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Post by chodjinn »

Mike,

<300bhp, but stock power will be 260-270bhp out of the box. And it'll be an auto until I can afford a £1.5k manual option.

I'm not 100% on your reply, maybe I'm not understanding what specific modification you are talking about wrt 'interesting effects of instantaneous grip'? Do you mean anti-tramp or the others? I'm certainly not keen on slappers at all, the car is going to be very low for a start and they're more drag orientated as discussed above.

I have researched this to some degree, most MGB V8 circuit racers use anti-tramp bars not caltracs/slappers. They can't all be wrong. Anti-tramp bars work under acceleration, braking, cornering. Caltracs don't from what I can tell?

And the reasons I'm looking at anti-tramp bars are that;

1. I can't afford a fancy coilover 4/5link system as much as I'd like one!
2. Keeping the cart springs is more MOT friendly (remember the point system, my car has been off the road since the mid-80s ...)
3. It's more 'classic' to have the cart springs and make them work - I'm doing the same with the front end.
4. I already have uprated leaf springs, nearly new koni shocks & bits in fact the whole rear axel is ready to bolt on after restoration .... I'm just looking to add a simple axel location kit and something to help the handling, so far, anti-tramps are the clear favorite ....
RIP MGB V8 .... served me well as a learning curve.

R32 Skyline V8 .... this one is gonna be a monster!

mgbv8
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Post by mgbv8 »

Caltrac & slappers are anti tramp bars. They will not really help with axle location on a circuit car. Although caltracs would be better than slapper bars for this application due to the way they work.

You need a panhard rod or a watts linkage kit if you want to keep the axle centered.

For keeping the axle from moving back and forth with leaf springs maybe you should fit to simple ladder bars ?
They will almost stop axle rotation and will deffo stop the axle casing moving back and forth.

I'm getting confused with what you think anti tramp bars are for ?

This is axle tramp or wheel hop which can be very destructive !
A 4 link will stop this, so will slappers and caltracs.




I think what Mike was describing was snap oversteer when cornering hard on leaf springs with an anti roll bar. Thats why a lot of folk remove the rear anti roll bar on an MGB. On a long hard corner the arb does its job for a while, but then the car seems to roll over at the rear all of a sudden and dump a shed load of extra steering in which takes you by surprise. Without the rear arb the oversteer comes in more gently.

The reason being that there is no for and aft axle location. Imagine turning into a fast left hand bend. The car rolls down on the drivers side and up on the other side. The rear arb hold this roll to a point where it cant do anymore. Then the car dips even further on the drivers side and it then tries to steer even harder to the left. What is happening?

Rear wheel steering is whats happening! The drivers side leaf spring is compressed and almost flat. This means the distance between the axle case centre and the front spring eye is long which effectively moves the drivers side rear wheel backwards. On the other side the spring is going the other way which means the distance between the axle case centre and the front spring eye is shorter than the drivers side. So the axle is now turned to compliment the front wheel steering.

By sprinting I do mean straight line stuff !
Show us a pictures of these rose jointed anti tramp bars you are talking about so we can see what they are?
Last edited by mgbv8 on Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Perry Stephenson

MGB GT + Rover V8

9.62 @ 137.37mph

Now looking for 8 seconds with a SBC engine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVscbPHgue0&list=UUqIlXfSAoiZ--GyG4tfRrjw



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg3avnsNKrc&index=2&list=FLqIlXfSAoiZ--GyG4tfRrjw

kiwicar
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Post by kiwicar »

Hi
OK, if you have telescopic dampers (I assume that is the konis) then put one in front of the axle and one behind it, if you can put a forward link from the middle of the diff casing forward parallel to the drive shaft down the transmission tunnel with a rubber bump stop on the front that will hit a plate in the tunnel if it tries to rotate under acceleration this arrangement will reduce tramp without drastically changing spring rates.
Have you read it describes the above better than I have.
Best regards
Mike
poppet valves rule!

chodjinn
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Post by chodjinn »

Perry I realise they are all 'anti-tramp' bars of some description but they don't all work exactly the same. Car will be for track/fast road mainly not straight line sprinting.

I found this pic for tramping;
Image

Slappers do not help both ways, and neither do caltracs as they pivot. What I am have been talking about will work in both accel & braking.


I know that anti tramp bars etc don't help with axel location, I've already got something planned to sort that out separately. I won't be running a watts or panhard though (I was planning on a panhard but I've found something slightly simpler & cheaper!). Lets leave axel location out of it for the time being - although adding a middle top link as Mike suggests, with the stuff below, would essentially be a form of 3-link.

Only the rubber bumper MGBs had rear anti-roll bars and yes people remove them, 'Bs handle better without them for reason you state wrt to snap oversteer (I do know how that works lol).

I did post a link earlier but this is what I'm talking about;
Image

They are very similar to the anti-tramp bars that Moss sell, but rose-jointed. Both mounting plates are bolted solid (rear one to axel using the U-clamps holding springs to axel, and from ones are bolted to spring hanger and body). Like I said, a LOT of MGB racers use this exact set up (or forms of it, usually it's the mounting plates that differ slightly in design). The ones posted above are from Fab-Tek and the owner is well know and been racing 'Bs for 20+ yrs, I've been in contact with him and he's very knowledgable & helpful. They look pretty simple to make.
RIP MGB V8 .... served me well as a learning curve.

R32 Skyline V8 .... this one is gonna be a monster!

mgbv8
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Post by mgbv8 »

"Perry I realise they are all 'anti-tramp' bars of some description but they don't all work exactly the same. Car will be for track/fast road mainly not straight line sprinting."


So fit the ones in your picture as they seem best suited to your needs and circuit racers have been using them with success for years. They look like good axle location bars. But I dont think they would be worth 5 bob on a drag car :) Is wheel hop that much of an issue on a circuit car?

You had your solution already.. :)

Perry Stephenson

MGB GT + Rover V8

9.62 @ 137.37mph

Now looking for 8 seconds with a SBC engine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVscbPHgue0&list=UUqIlXfSAoiZ--GyG4tfRrjw



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg3avnsNKrc&index=2&list=FLqIlXfSAoiZ--GyG4tfRrjw

chodjinn
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Post by chodjinn »

Yes I did have my solution mostly; I was looking for confirmation/advice/alternatives, we were discussing the pros/cons etc. of other types ... since you raised slappers/caltracs it in the thread! :)

Seemed to deviate slightly and come back on ourselves haha! But that's what forums are for eh!


I'm looking at about a 2" drop on mine all round now. Going for drop spindles ... and hopefully making my own coilover conversion for the front ... if I can ever get the damn level arm assemblies apart!
RIP MGB V8 .... served me well as a learning curve.

R32 Skyline V8 .... this one is gonna be a monster!

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Post by mgbv8 »

A home made coil over conversion for the front is simple if you use the Costello setup. The Costello setup uses the original springs with a separate telescopic damper. But I dont see why it cant be used with a coilover if the spring rate is ok.

Perry Stephenson

MGB GT + Rover V8

9.62 @ 137.37mph

Now looking for 8 seconds with a SBC engine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVscbPHgue0&list=UUqIlXfSAoiZ--GyG4tfRrjw



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg3avnsNKrc&index=2&list=FLqIlXfSAoiZ--GyG4tfRrjw

chodjinn
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Post by chodjinn »

mgbv8 wrote:A home made coil over conversion for the front is simple if you use the Costello setup. The Costello setup uses the original springs with a separate telescopic damper. But I dont see why it cant be used with a coilover if the spring rate is ok.
The costello setup is good, but the Moss coilover kit is better, cheaper and comes with Gaz coilovers.

I was talking to a fellow MGB owner about the Moss kit, and he knocked up his own version for much less than £300 using some refurbed coilovers off ebay, original wishbones, modified lower spring pan/xmember and some custom aluminium pillow mounts with some fancy top hat spacers.

Having talked to him about it I'm going to do the same, the Moss/Gaz shocks can be had on their own new for <£300 (or I might find some cheaper).

I've also discovered there's a guy in the netherlands that used the original Armstrong dampers, gutted them, had the upper pivot turned down to match the coilover upper mount, made custom lower mounts in the original spring pan (like the Moss kit) and all that was needed was some spacers to centralise the coilover. Since I've already got a set of Armstrong dampers going spare after stripping my front cross-member, I'm giving that a shot.

So two pretty easy ways to get proper coilovers for about £300, and most of that cost is the shocks!

Add in some Moss negative camber wishbones, castor correction kit from B&G and thicker ARB, and you've pretty much got the best front end setup for an MGB all for about £500-600. Not bad eh!
RIP MGB V8 .... served me well as a learning curve.

R32 Skyline V8 .... this one is gonna be a monster!

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Post by Darkspeed »

Pretty sure all those kits are just the Frontline Developments kits - I did a bit of searching about and found that the case with the Midget stuff sold through Moss and Rimmers - went and had a chat with frontline directly and got it far cheaper from them and a tour of the showroom etc.

Far better to go to Frontline direct as they will provide far more support and assistance if any problems are encountered.
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chodjinn
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Post by chodjinn »

Darkspeed wrote:Pretty sure all those kits are just the Frontline Developments kits - I did a bit of searching about and found that the case with the Midget stuff sold through Moss and Rimmers - went and had a chat with frontline directly and got it far cheaper from them and a tour of the showroom etc.

Far better to go to Frontline direct as they will provide far more support and assistance if any problems are encountered.
I'm absolutely sure they are not the same. The frontline kit uses dampers, the Moss kit uses gaz coilovers. All the mounting gear is completely different, just look at the pics.

The MGB stuff from frontline is generally more expensive than other stuff on the market. I found only the panhard rod kit is cheaper than Moss.
RIP MGB V8 .... served me well as a learning curve.

R32 Skyline V8 .... this one is gonna be a monster!

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Post by mgbloke »

I have made my own anti Tramp bars and panhard rod with custom anti roll bar. It has been a lot of work testing different settings and mountings, All of the components in the rear suspension need to be working in harmony.
I am about to start again with a ford 8inch axle and make my own trailing 3 link with mumford linkage for axle control.
The handling of my MGB is quite honestly unbelieveable. Have a look at v8bloke on youtube.
I am only upgrading because I am expecting more power and torque with latest engine upgrades and don't think my composite spring will hold up.

What exactly do you need to know? I could maybe take some pics.

Cheers

Mark

chodjinn
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Post by chodjinn »

Hi Mark,

Yes a few pics would be great please, always happy to hear from direct experience. I'd just like to see how you have done it. I've got a few solid ideas but nothing set in stone as yet.

Mumford linkage is great, probably the best way to locate an axle. Any ideas on how you will be mounting the two pivot points? I'm assuming some form of cradle mounted to the boot/rear chassis rails?

So what will you be doing with your current setup? Selling it ....? :D

And I've seen your vids before, amazing!

Olly
RIP MGB V8 .... served me well as a learning curve.

R32 Skyline V8 .... this one is gonna be a monster!

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