Supercharger options

General Chat And Help Regarding Turbocharging and Supercharging.

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ChrisJC
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Supercharger options

Post by ChrisJC »

Good Evening All.
I am pondering the next engine for my Landie. It will be based on a 4.6 V8 from a P38 Range Rover (Thor version), running the Bosch Motronic ECU.

I am quite tempted by the idea of adding a supercharger to the inlet manifold between throttle body and manifold.

I'm not looking to go mad, but just to push the BHP to a bit over 300. I am sure that the Motronic ECU can handle that as standard.

I would like advice on what supercharger would be most suitable - and what car were they fitted to so I can find one on eBay?

Thanks in advance,

Chris.


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Post by SuperV8 »

I presume you are thinking about a roots or screw type supercharger?
I think the common applications would be the supercharged Jag V8's Eaton M112, you'll need to do some fabrication work on the inlet manifold fitment.
I have used a centrifugal supercharger because
A. fitment - can just make a bracket on the front of the engine
B. power delivery suits my (light) car and driving
C. I found one on ebay for a good price!

Having said that if I was to do it again I would go the turbo route, (having had reliability issues with the centrifugal supercharger) cheap/reliable and if using a well sized turbo for your driving requirements/vehicle would make a flexible motor.

Are you able to tune Motronic? or have someone tune it for you? If you have to pay someone to re-calibrate Motoronic obviously you need to factor that into the build budget.

Tom.
Dax Rush 4.6 supercharged V8 MSII

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Post by Eliot »

I found with my Dakar, that even 5-6 psi of boost made quite a difference, so would be interested to know how much boost the std ECU could cope with - be nice to drop a turbo on the P38 for a little more power.
Eliot Mansfield
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Post by ChrisJC »

I did consider the turbo route, but then I have to bring both sides of the exhaust together somewhere, or have two turbos. And space is at a premium. Then you have to lubricate them, and probably water-cool them too.

A supercharger seems easy by comparison, just mount it somewhere so it can be driven by the drive belt, and hook it up between throttle body and inlet manifold. It might make more sense to put it before the throttle body so the IAT gets a realistic number.

I have heard that the Motronic runs to at least 315BHP in stock form, so hopefully it will be OK with a small amount of boost on an otherwise standard (ish) 4.6.

Perhaps I'll procure an M112 and have a look at it.

Chris.
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Post by Eliot »

I did get hold of what I thought was a M112 and had a look at positioning options, but it felt a bit of a pain and I didn't like the lack of intercooling.

People say you can ignore intercooling on low boost, but I would rather implement it when boosting an otherwise standard engine with cast pistons and relatively high compression ratio.
Eliot Mansfield
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Post by SuperV8 »

Would these not fit:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-V8-Petrol-P ... SwstxVfnTD
Not sure what turbo flange they use?

Or is this what you were thinking of doing?
http://baileyperformance.co.uk/?p=125

Fitting turbos is really just a plumping exercise, fitting a roots supercharger will involve new/modified inlet manifold re-design of belt drive and more difficult to intercool.

Tom.
Dax Rush 4.6 supercharged V8 MSII

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Post by ChrisJC »

Those exhaust manifolds look just like Range Rover Classic EFi manifolds, but made of stainless tube rather than cast! I wonder if the seller knows what they are doing....

I think that Bailey vehicle is way past what I have in mind. I was thinking of keeping the Thor manifold and just blowing into it where the throttle body goes.....

Maybe a Roots type charger isn't right, maybe a vane type one would be better....

Chris.
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Post by SuperV8 »

Oh yes,
Cheeky buggers, or maybe just stupid!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EXHAUST-MANIFOL ... XB&vxp=mtr

Could be quite easy to modify I guess, and weld a turbo flange to it, depends on if you have room down the side.
I think that Bailey vehicle is way past what I have in mind. I was thinking of keeping the Thor manifold and just blowing into it where the throttle body goes.....

Maybe a Roots type charger isn't right, maybe a vane type one would be better....
Ah so you were thinking of mounting the roots blower to the side, could be done if you have space.
Vane superchargers aren't very popular, do you mean centrifugal supercharger? they would work and are easy to mount (i'm using one) but they are expensive, you'd need to re-design the belt system and tend to work higher up the RPM range.

Tom.
Dax Rush 4.6 supercharged V8 MSII

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Post by ChrisJC »

Aha, yes, my ignorance! I did mean a centrifugal supercharger. Good to get the right words!

Roughly how much are we talking to get one suitable? These sorts of things are hard to get a price on.

Can you drive one from the usual ribbed drive belt?, or does one need a toothed belt?

Chris.
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Post by Eliot »

ChrisJC wrote:Aha, yes, my ignorance! I did mean a centrifugal supercharger. Good to get the right words!

Roughly how much are we talking to get one suitable? These sorts of things are hard to get a price on.

Can you drive one from the usual ribbed drive belt?, or does one need a toothed belt?

Chris.
Dont need toothed, but plenty of tension and lots of wrap around the pulley. Sometimes need to go to 8 rib setup to avoid slip.
Eliot Mansfield
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Post by SuperV8 »

Have a google/ebay for vortech or procharger (american) or Rotrex (European)
Think you'll be looking at £1000+ and probably nearer 2000 for a headunit then need to sort plumbing, bracket and pulley drive.
The 7 rib from the serpentine Rover V8 should be fine, i'm using this and works, just make sure you get as much belt wrap around the supercharger pulley as possible.
I've had to re-build my procharger- long story, (I have a thread else where on here) but I would take the spec/airflow/max rpm with a pinch of salt

The centrifugal supercharger does very work well in my small light kit car and really starts to fly above 4000 rpm but to be honest I don't think it's well suited to a Land Rover which needs torque at lower rpm.

I suppose if you're really set on the centrifugal supercharger route you could gear it higher and limit you engine rpm to 4500 so you don't over rev the charger.

Tom.
Dax Rush 4.6 supercharged V8 MSII

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Post by ChrisJC »

Thanks Tom. Yup, it does seem to be nearer £2K for the complete setup (Rotrex).

I will have to look at the specs to see how well it might work. It'll only be a very light Land Rover (about 1.6tonnes), so having a relatively high RPM before it goes mental should be fine. I suppose I could find out the max RPM Motronic allows, and gear the supercharger accordingly.

Which unit do you have?

Chris.
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R/R L405 4.4 SDV8

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Post by SuperV8 »

I use a 'hybrid' procharger C1

Couple of posts here about my troubles and photos of the fitment.
http://www.v8forum.co.uk/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=
http://www.v8forum.co.uk/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=
http://www.v8forum.co.uk/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=
They come up every now and then second hand on ebay which is where I got mine.
Even only 6 or 7 psi still makes a big difference. When I drove back from the drag strip with my supercharger belt removed after my SC bearings failed I did think how slow and quiet it seemed! and that's a 4.6 rover V8 in a 700kg kit car.


Tom.
Dax Rush 4.6 supercharged V8 MSII

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Post by stevieturbo »

First question.....what is your budget and fabrication skills ?

Building a reliable supercharger system from scratch isnt an easy proposition and if you cannot machine stuff yourself, it could get pricey.

By comparison and with the multitude of turbos available, a very cheap DIY turbo system is doable as long as you can weld and do basic tasks.

There's always room for a turbo somewhere, and it shouldnt be too hard to get pipework to/from it. Pipes do not need to be as large as you might think, especially for a low boost low power setup.
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Post by ChrisJC »

Budget should cover it, and I think I'm pretty handy at fabrication. If I can't make it myself, I'll get a local machinist to make it.

I think more research is required....

Tom - any idea why yours ate itself?

Chris.
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R/R L405 4.4 SDV8

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