Edis .....or not

General Chat About Engine Build

Moderator: phpBB2 - Administrators

Post Reply
Mc Tool
Helpful or Confused
Helpful or Confused
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:29 am
Location: Thornbury New Zealand

Edis .....or not

Post by Mc Tool »

Hi , I am in the process of building an early block 3.5 with vittess efi heads/ valves and a "fast road cam "( 280 Deg @ 50" and 510" lift ). I have just got a 3.9 efi manifold ( spent about a week polishing it up to mirror finish )and a megasquirt magic box,...... in a nutshell , if I go for the edis and biff the dizzy ....how do I drive the oil pump ? Is there a kit or do I butcher a dizzy....like chop the top off it ,shorten the shaft and seal the remains of the housing ?. Being as this is a road car ( Capri) I dunno if I need edis but I will probly soon build a 3.9 block assy and I may find I just can't live without it
Hamish


I wish I was young again , Id be heaps smarter than the first time

DaveEFI
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 4603
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:27 pm
Location: SW London, UK

Re: Edis .....or not

Post by DaveEFI »

Of all the things that gave problems in my some 30 years of owning my SD1 EFI, ignition came tops. Mainly the amp on the DLM dizzy failing. But caps and rotor arms too. And it seems there can be problems finding decent quality replacements for these now.

I fitted EDIS some years ago, and it has been 100% reliable, which it is known for.

However, with MegaSquirt, one tends to get the upgrade bug. :D

The major disadvantage with EDIS is the rev limit is fixed by EDIS. If you add coil drivers to MS and dispense with the EDIS module, you can then set the rev limit to what you want. Or you could use one coil per plug, which is what most modern engines do.

A stumpy is the obvious way to drive the oil pump. Even better - given that upgrade bug - make one which includes a single tooth trigger wheel and sensor, to provide a cam signal, should you decide to go sequential later on.
Dave
London SW
Rover SD1 VDP EFI
MegaSquirt2 V3
EDIS8
Tech Edge 2Y

Mc Tool
Helpful or Confused
Helpful or Confused
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:29 am
Location: Thornbury New Zealand

Re: Edis .....or not

Post by Mc Tool »

Hi ,thanks for your reply .I thought that the efi was a timed to deliver fuel to each individual pot during its intake stroke but upon viewing the circuit diagram it seems this is not so .....kinda frustrating as it seems like when I set a target ......I started with twin S U's, found a edelbrook /390 Holley's , then the stock efi, then MS and now edis and sequential injection๐Ÿ˜ , I did at one point have a Bosch height dizzy fitted but it was a good 8"in daimeter so I went back to a stock Lucas electronic dizzy.
When you say the rev limit is set by the edis do you mean once the limit is initially set by the maker/installer at what you want the limit to be it can't be user adjusted after that or do I get no choice at all ( I would want 6500 rpm ). Where do you stop๐Ÿ˜ƒefi seems to be more power and economy but it looks like it going to cost me 2 grand but I can buy a lot of petrol for 2 grand and feed it thru my holley . I think I will go for the MS with edis as I'm sure that once set up properly it will be way better than stock Iggy and carbs.
Thanks
Hamish
I wish I was young again , Id be heaps smarter than the first time

DaveEFI
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 4603
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:27 pm
Location: SW London, UK

Re: Edis .....or not

Post by DaveEFI »

The Lucas systems are batch injection. Two banks of 4 injectors which fire 180 degrees apart - but each twice per revolution. Fully sequential seems to give a slightly better idle and better emissions - but at a cost.

I'm not sure what the EDIS rev limit is - it's above what my Vitesse unit will rev to. But you'd need to check if you are using a hairier cam than standard. I've not heard of any way to alter it - but only is a problem where it is a problem, as it were.

I've been running MS2/EDIS for ages and it works very well indeed. I do have an MX3X built and waiting to be fitted with individual coils, but that is going to wait till I build a new 3.9 engine, which I have ready for an overhaul. Perhaps this year.

If you think MS2 is going to be just fine for you too, you could save by buying a used one, and send it to me for checking. I keep all the bits needed for any repair in stock - if it should need it, and they're rarely expensive to fix, unless obviously been in a fire. :D

There's one UK MS seller who seems fixated on MS1. I've no idea why. I didn't even consider it some 10 years ago. If you can afford it, MS3 would be the way to go

All the common MS use the same motherboard, which has two versions. The V3, which uses through hole construction, and the V3.57 which is machine made with surface mount components. They perform much the same. But the V3 is easier to repair or modify if ever needed, so best to go for that.
Dave
London SW
Rover SD1 VDP EFI
MegaSquirt2 V3
EDIS8
Tech Edge 2Y

scudderfish
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 486
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:53 pm
Location: Harpenden, Hertfordshire

Re: Edis .....or not

Post by scudderfish »

I think the point is that with EDIS you can't cut the spark for rev limiting, all you can do with it is adjust the timing. It doesn't set the rev limit itself (for all practical purposes, it'll never be fast enough for 1,000,000rpm)

Mc Tool
Helpful or Confused
Helpful or Confused
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:29 am
Location: Thornbury New Zealand

Re: Edis .....or not

Post by Mc Tool »

Thanks Dave ,I have actually bought a 2nd hand ms ,( not actually ever used๐Ÿ™„) and it's thru board construction .....I got ripped, it was supposed to be adjustable fueling and ignition ,all set to go minus the fuel pump ,complete with manuals and software,wiring harness and patch cord, what I actually got was the magic box ,a plug with 4 bits of wire and part of a hand scribbled circuit diagram, nothing else.
The ms guy here seems helpful at this early stage but there is nothing like listening to peeps that have done it successfully on their own pride & joy. Thanks to the respondents for your time and info๐Ÿ˜Š.
The plan from here is to a) send the box to ms NZ and see what I have actually got, and if the news is good....
B) get me a good stock harness and send it to him to modify
C) get some sensors ,software ,manuals and patch cord of him and a crank sensor kit from trigger wheels . com
and then light the wick with my(brand new) dizzy while I stew over this edis thing.
I have just sold my 916 to finance the project (a bit moreโ˜น๏ธ๐Ÿ™„๐Ÿ˜)....wife is happy coz I damn near killed myself on the SS ..."from the armpits down you have either fractured,ruptured, lacerated or contused at least one of everything ".......shoulda stayed home that day๐Ÿ˜†
I wish I was young again , Id be heaps smarter than the first time

DaveEFI
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 4603
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:27 pm
Location: SW London, UK

Re: Edis .....or not

Post by DaveEFI »

I can send you a properly drawn PDF of the MS wiring on mine including the EDIS. Which should be pretty close. Not sure if it can be attached here, so might need your email address.

It's likely an MS 1 or 2. The MS1 has a black one piece chip as the processor. The MS 2, a daughter board with a smaller processor and other bits on it - which includes a stepper motor driver, handy for idle control on the Hotwire injection.

Assuming a V3 board, the only difference is the processor ( the V3 PCB is blue and marked V3 - the early V2.2 is green and marked V2.2.) But even a V2.2 MS1 will do batch injection and control EDIS.

You can buy an MS2 daughter board to fit to any V3 - or even an MS3 daughter board.
Dave
London SW
Rover SD1 VDP EFI
MegaSquirt2 V3
EDIS8
Tech Edge 2Y

User avatar
Eliot
Top Dog
Top Dog
Posts: 1765
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:46 am
Location: Milton Keynes
Contact:

Re: Edis .....or not

Post by Eliot »

I'm running an MS1 (through-hole board as you put it) with EDIS8 on my 5.7 twin turbo chevy - it's been in there for years, my board was just after the second group buy around 2003.

http://www.mez.co.uk/megasquirt-new.html
Eliot Mansfield
5.7 Dakar 4x4, 4.6 P38 & L322 TDV8
www.mez.co.uk / www.efilive.co.uk

DaveEFI
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 4603
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:27 pm
Location: SW London, UK

Re: Edis .....or not

Post by DaveEFI »

Eliot wrote: โ†‘
Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:01 pm
I'm running an MS1 (through-hole board as you put it) with EDIS8 on my 5.7 twin turbo chevy - it's been in there for years, my board was just after the second group buy around 2003.

http://www.mez.co.uk/megasquirt-new.html
That's a V2.2 PCB. The V3 has some advantages including a choice of tach inputs for a VR sensor as well as the opto isolator on the V2.2. And rather more sophisticated injector drivers which can drive Lo-Z injectors directly, with no series resistors.

But if it works well, why change things? Problem is if you keep up with MS products, you may get the urge to experiment and upgrade. :D

The MS1 chip has been obsolete for some years - but there still seem to be stocks around.
Dave
London SW
Rover SD1 VDP EFI
MegaSquirt2 V3
EDIS8
Tech Edge 2Y

Mc Tool
Helpful or Confused
Helpful or Confused
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:29 am
Location: Thornbury New Zealand

Re: Edis .....or not

Post by Mc Tool »

I have discovered that my ms1 won't drive the idle up stepper but will (can be made to) drive either a on/off or a pwm idle air control valve(2 or 3wire) , anyone care to comment or recommend a valve to suit. Does the pwm controlled valve control idle speed at a steady rpm as the engine warms up? I'm picking that the on/off type valve just dumps extra air in untill the engine hit a certain temp then turns off. Is the cold start extra fuelling provided by the normal running injectors . The reason I ask is that it's just occured to me that both my other cars have an extra injector for cold fuelling where as I don't see such a thing on my rover efi manifold assy. How can I tell if my assy is a flapper or a hot wire job. Sorry about all the questions but I have learnt more off you lot in the last couple of weeks than I have ever before. Thanks for the wiring pdf Dave much appreciated.
Regards
Hamish
I wish I was young again , Id be heaps smarter than the first time

DaveEFI
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 4603
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:27 pm
Location: SW London, UK

Re: Edis .....or not

Post by DaveEFI »

If you have a stepper motor ICV, it is likely a hotwire. The MS2 daughter card has a chip on it to drive that. MS1 can drive a simple on off ICV - not so sure about a PWM controlled one. (I started out with MS2, so not well up on MS1)
The flapper system does have an extra cold start injector. With MS, but the flapper injectors, it seems OK in the UK without. Coldest start I've done is likely about -10C. You can use the flapper ICV - that is standalone and works on coolant temperature, plus an heating element. But a proper closed loop ICV would be better.
Dave
London SW
Rover SD1 VDP EFI
MegaSquirt2 V3
EDIS8
Tech Edge 2Y

Mc Tool
Helpful or Confused
Helpful or Confused
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:29 am
Location: Thornbury New Zealand

Re: Edis .....or not

Post by Mc Tool »

Just to add ,fyi , I have found a good source of wire for home built projects is the local car wreaker , often a section ,or the whole thing , of a wiring harness can be chopped out and provides a good selection of gauges and colour combinations . Pre l e d light cars are the best as a lot of the longer bits (read ," to the rear end of the car....tail lights ") are smaller gauge wires on the modern cars..... sometimes even the plugs and sockets can be used. The best bit often you get it for free๐Ÿ˜
Hamish
I wish I was young again , Id be heaps smarter than the first time

Quagmire
Knows His Stuff
Knows His Stuff
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:42 am
Location: Hook, UK

Re: Edis .....or not

Post by Quagmire »

DaveEFI wrote: โ†‘
Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:56 pm
If you have a stepper motor ICV, it is likely a hotwire. The MS2 daughter card has a chip on it to drive that. MS1 can drive a simple on off ICV - not so sure about a PWM controlled one. (I started out with MS2, so not well up on MS1)
The flapper system does have an extra cold start injector. With MS, but the flapper injectors, it seems OK in the UK without. Coldest start I've done is likely about -10C. You can use the flapper ICV - that is standalone and works on coolant temperature, plus an heating element. But a proper closed loop ICV would be better.
Dave - MS1 will do a PWM controlled air valve (most people use a variant of Bosch# 0280140516), but not a stepper type one. I have MS1 on my Landrover, and MS2 on my P6. I much prefer the MS2.

I have still never got round to rigging up any kind of air valve on the Landrover, it starts fine on even the coldest days - you just have to keep your foot on the gas for maybe 20 seconds after its started before you can lift off and go and scrape your windscreen. Hot idle is 800rpm, which without the extra air a valve would provide then drops when its really cold to about 450-500rpm while its warming up...

As for the rev limiter - i think you can set a "soft" rev limit on EDIS which just retards the spark massively, and you can still cut fuel if you want.
1974 Rover 3500s
1984 3.5 90
1959 2.25 series 2

SuperV8
Guru
Guru
Posts: 947
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:25 pm
Location: West midlands

Re: Edis .....or not

Post by SuperV8 »

I never used the cold start injector - even with the standard Lucas flapper ECU, just filled over/painted to the hole in the plenum. Always started fine, so I wouldn't worry about it with MS.

I never had much luck with driving a PWM extra air valve with MS1 - I changed to MS2 and now i'm using the IAC from the GEMS plenum and works like a charm, the GEMS plenum also has a simpler/neater/cheaper IAC arrangement than the hot wire plenum.

I'm using ford coil packs switched by MS. Had lots of problems with this setup (which I believe is not recommended anymore due to switching high frequency/currents directly on the MS board and causing electrical noise) so now MS is triggering a coil switching module which is doing the high current switching of the coil packs and this works perfect.

Tom.
Dax Rush 4.6 supercharged V8 MSII

DaveEFI
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 4603
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:27 pm
Location: SW London, UK

Re: Edis .....or not

Post by DaveEFI »

I've repaired a few MS with high current coil drivers squeezed inside for wasted spark. Never did see the point - other than being able to sell an all in one unit. Far better IMHO to build them into a separate box with a decent heat sink and mount closer to the coils.
Dave
London SW
Rover SD1 VDP EFI
MegaSquirt2 V3
EDIS8
Tech Edge 2Y

Post Reply

Return to โ€œEngines Areaโ€