Oil leak, new Rover V8 headgaskets

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ratwing
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Oil leak, new Rover V8 headgaskets

Post by ratwing »

| finished my engine build at last - Turner Engineering 4.6 top hatted block, heads by Peter Burgess, Elring head gaskets held down with a set of JE studs & nuts, Yella Terra roller rockers and pretty much every other moving part replaced by new bits. I set the timing, turned the fuel pump on, it started first press of the button and sounded fantastic through a pair of very lightly baffled 3" pipes :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: All the time and money I'd put into it since retiring was worth it.
So you can imagine my disappointment a few days later when I found oil dripping from the bottom edge of both head gaskets...
This is probably clutching at straws but in the "old days" before engines used stretch bolts, heads would be torqued and then retorqued after running the engine - I'm not using stretch bolts, if I just retorque the nuts is this likely fix it?



carsy
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Post by carsy »

Can't see it being your heads. Most likely is the inlet valley gasket leaking from the very corners and then the oil will be finding its way around the heads.

Did you use a little sealant in the 4 corners of the valley gasket where the rubber end seals fjt.

ratwing
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Post by ratwing »

I've just looked again, the valley joints are still bone dry. I put the rubbers on to check the fit and trimmed them slightly, in the final assembly I used Wynns black sealer and they are completely oil tight.
It definately appears to be coming from the lower edges of both head to block joints, the front, back and top edges are dry - a bit of paper towel pushed into the joints doesn't come out oily.
It's probably something I've done wrong although can't think what, the block and heads were prepared by reputable companies (Turner Engineering and Peter Burgess) so I wouldn't think the problem lies there.
Apparently there are head/block locating dowels which can bottom out if the block & heads have been skimmed, I don't remember seeing any but its another reason to take the heads off. I'll check for flatness too.

fresseler
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Re: Oil leak, new Rover V8 headgaskets

Post by fresseler »

Hi,
Sorry to revive this thread, but did you eventually solved your issue? I have the same issue and I believe it has to do with the liners sitting above the deck.
Regards,
Frank

sidecar
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Re: Oil leak, new Rover V8 headgaskets

Post by sidecar »

The liners may well sit above the deck when the engine has been 'top hatted'. Some head gaskets have a copper ring where the oil is transferred from the block to the head, this type of gasket may well sort out your issue. I have a 4.6 that is not top hatted but I still smear a very small amount of silicone sealant round the hole in the head gasket. (both side of the gasket). In fact for the last two engines that I built I sprayed the whole gasket on both sides with copper/silicone spray. Another option would be to open the hole out in the gasket to something like 8mm then place an O ring with an OD of 8mm in the hole before fitting the head, that should work pretty well.

fresseler
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Re: Oil leak, new Rover V8 headgaskets

Post by fresseler »

Hi Sidecar,
thanks for the reply. I already have changed the gaskets and hoped to solve the issue with the oil feed from block to head being blocked off in the cylinder block and head. I do not need this oil feed because of the full roller rockers . The roller rockers get there oil from the followers via the push rods. Iskenderian lifters HY202 with custom push rods with oil feed canal. with oil feed from the lifters/push rods and standard oil feed, the heads were being flooded with oil.
So the leak must come via the valley underneath the head and past the head gasket to the side of the engine. Once the engine is hot, the leaking stops. I think that the elring gasket is not fully compressed. I had a look at the old gaskets and it seems that they are not fully compress at every area. Machining lines from head and block can be clearly seen where the studs are situated. In between the studs the machining marks from head and deck are not visible at all. It looks like the head is being distorted like you can see for example in a pillow with pincushion buttons. The fire rings is compressed in off and no leaking at that area. Maybe the fire ring is at its maximum compressing and therefore preventing the rest of the gasket to seal against head and block. Once the block is at its working temperature, the aluminum expands and head and block seals against the gasket. I believe that the elring gasket is a good deisgn but not so good if liners stick above the deck. The liners are +- 0.005 above the deck.
Permatex Copper spray may solve this but I only used this in the past on tin or copper head gaskets never on composite head gaskets.
For now I will drive the car as it is and plan to open it again next winter. Hopefully I will have a better idea/plan on how to solve this brain cracking stupid oil leak.
Regards,
Frank

ratwing
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Re: Oil leak, new Rover V8 headgaskets

Post by ratwing »

Like you, I think the 'soft' part of the head gasket is too thin and so isn't compressed enough to make an oil tight joint even though the fire rings are well sealed.
I still have leaks but am trying without success to get some thicker head gaskets (because my compression ratio is too high) before I take the heads off to fix the leaks.

Davo
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Re: Oil leak, new Rover V8 headgaskets

Post by Davo »

I am confused: how are the liners proud of the block? They're supposed to be machined when the block is decked. I'm selfishly concerned because I've been after a Turner block for years now.

ratwing
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Re: Oil leak, new Rover V8 headgaskets

Post by ratwing »

I suppose if the block face is flat and the liners pushed in then you could plane the protruding liners down until they're either still standing proud by any amount you choose or until they're flush with the block.
I don't remember my liners being higher than the block but could be mistaken, it was quite a while ago that I put the engine together.
I can't help thinking it's a gasket problem rather than an engine block problem, I may be wrong but I wouldn't have thought a few thou more gap would be enough to stop the soft part of the gasket from being properly compressed?
Something I've thought of - I'm using studs & nuts instead of bolts, stretch bolts are tightened by degrees turning instead of a torque setting like the studs but maybe this (studs) somehow overcompresses elring gaskets? (most unlikely but I'm now well into clutching at straws territory).

fresseler
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Re: Oil leak, new Rover V8 headgaskets

Post by fresseler »

Apparently we are not the only ones that have this problem.Did some internet searching and I found at least 3 others having the same issue.
Turner engineering and other install the liners like this on all there V8 blocks. Some engine builders don't like to have the liner flush with the deck. They insist that it sits +-0.003 to 0.005" above the deck. The liner will not move any further down because the top hat sits on the machined deck. The extra amount that the liners sits above the deck is meant to have the fire ring more compressed and thus result in a better combustion chamber sealing. Also due to the aluminum expansion rate that is twice that of iron, the liner will keep it clamping force. I am convinced that the fire ring is compressed to its maximum thus not fully compressing the composite part. I plan to use some silicone sealant on both sides of the head gasket at the valley side or use a older type composite 3.9 head gasket. The older type gaskets came from real steel and do not have the large amount of fire ring/stud hole cladding. The 3.9's only have 4 fire ring's, some copper folded material around the waterways and copper insert for the oil way's.

ratwing
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Re: Oil leak, new Rover V8 headgaskets

Post by ratwing »

FWIW my original plan for a cure was to use copper spray on some new gaskets and black instant gasket (wynn's) along the top edge in the valley, this does stop the leaks. However, a session on the rolling road showed I had too high compression ratio (couldn't get enough ignition advance without pinking) so am still trying to find some thicker gaskets which I'll also fit in the same way.

fresseler
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Re: Oil leak, new Rover V8 headgaskets

Post by fresseler »

Hi ratwing,
Yesterday I received an order form rimmerbros of after market and std elring head gaskets. To my surprise, the elring are now also teflon coated. I still have some old elring's on stock and the old ones definitely don't have any coating on them. Does this mean that elring confirms with this change in design that they had a problem in the past?
The after-market ones and the ones I have from real steel (3.9 composite) are also teflon coated.
Frank

fresseler
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Re: Oil leak, new Rover V8 headgaskets

Post by fresseler »

Hi everyone,
short update, this could help someone in the future.
Took the heads of last weekend and as expected the head gasket was very oily on both sides. Clearly the head gasket is not sitting snug at every place and this for as well cylinder head side as block side.
As last resort I used copper spray to coat the head gasket. I used the earlier ellring type (not Teflon coated. I had some old new stock hanging around in the shop).
The car has done +- 40km in total with 3 warm-up cool-down cycles and no more oil leaks.
The liner sit 0.04mm above deck and this must be the reason why the oil is leaking from valley to both sides. Before disassembly I did some pressure logging of the valley and there is almost no positive pressure . So the capillary effect due to small openings from valley to side must be resulting in these leaks. The oil feed from block to head was already fully blocked in head (at both sides) and engine block, so this can not be the reason why it leaked. Hopefully it remains leak free for now, but a smart response I once got from a friend; its a rv8 if it is not leaking you should quickly add some oil! :-).
Grtz,
Frank

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