new member, 1st post, new project...

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Ozzy_Uk
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new member, 1st post, new project...

Post by Ozzy_Uk »

Hello guys,
i am hoping that someone here can help me with a few questions on my V8 project...

first some background...
this is my baby:

it is a Lotus Excel 2.2l 16v twincam, 160bhp, 1050kgs, 0-60 circa 6s, top speed approx 130mph...

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it was my wedding car, my commuting car, my track day car, and now it is being reborn...

i bought and broke this:
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and am taking this:
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(minus gearbox as i am keeping the lotus gearbox which is actually a Toyota W58 box!)

and putting it here:
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the old Lotus 912 engine is actually only 15kgs lighter than the Alloy Jag V8, and with the AC stripped off should be similar weights...

i have also bought this:
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complete fuel rail, injectors, Eaton M112 XKR supercharger, and twin Jaguar Charge coolers...

the project plan is car stripped and roll cage added, weight target of 900kgs wet, with 525bhp/500lb/ft... power to weight of appox 580bhp/tonne...

so about 50bhp per tonne more than a bugatti veyron :)

yes its a bit mental, but thats the plan...

now what i need to know, most importantly... does anyone make an off the shelf bell houseing for an AJV8 to Toyota gearbox adapter, and what would be sensible things to do to a stock 4.0l Jaguar V8 from 2001... i will be using an Emerald ECU to run the car in a wasted spark configuration...

the gearbox location is going to determine the engine location, and so the link between the 2 is really the most important part of the project...

the Excel has a hydraulic clutch on the toyota W58 box, which i would like to modify to fit the Jag lump...

is it worth swapping the timing chain? (engine was rebuilt only 15,000 miles ago)...

does anyone run an APU? i was thinking of using a small bike engine to run the water pump, oil pump, and alternator(s) to reduce parasitic loss on the V8...

any advice appreciated!

oh and obligatory cheesy photo:
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:lol:

thanks guys
Oz.


4.0l supercharged Jaguar Lotus Excel V8... (in progress) 550bhp/tonne - target.

JJMclure
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Post by JJMclure »

Hello, what a fantastic idea you have had there! re the timing chain, do you know the extent of the rebuild and have receipts for parts? As for the bellhousing I wouldn't know but is there a different box that you could fudge in there that will fit straight on? That way you may be able to get away with just a different prop? Just a thought
don't nibble on the barrel, pull the trigger!

Ozzy_Uk
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Post by Ozzy_Uk »

Thanks, this is my first engine conversion, i am doing this having just spent 2 years building a house after starting out with the comment "how hard can it be right?"... :)

i really like the W58, i believe the R154 is almost a stright swap, but i really like the charecter of the W58, its nicely geard, i dont want the car do do more than about 140mph, i want it geared so that on the back straight at snetterton im hitting the limmiter in 5th at about 4/5th of the way down it...

i want to try to get 0-100mph sub 10s, and 0-140-0 in sub 25s...

thats the target anyway...

no silly speeds, just silly acceloration...

the W58 seems like its used lots in the USA, and Australia, with V8s to great effect, so having a known good box that i have grown to love seems a shame to change it...

was chatting with a friend of mine who has worked on R&D with lambo and fezza as well as mclaren cars, he thinks an adapter plate is reasonable. was hoping that someone somewhere might have done this before though as the AJV8 is such a great engine, produces 400bhp out the box, and is easilly tuneable to over 550bhp on stock internals, and over 750bhp with the stock bottom end (just uprated pistons/heads/valves etc)...

Cosworth actually developed the AJ26/28 for jag, and the supercharging on them too...

they also have Variable valve timing, and are easilly map-able... the Emerald ECU i will be running can have up to 3 maps, to i will have a wet-road (very linear torque, 400bhp ish), dry-road (less linear torque, more power (450bhp ish) and track map (torque higher in rev range, higher rev limiter (circa 6500-7000rpm, and max power 500-550bhp)....

was hoping someone else might have done an AJ26/28 with W58...

thanks!
4.0l supercharged Jaguar Lotus Excel V8... (in progress) 550bhp/tonne - target.

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demo2
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Post by demo2 »

Thats gonna be nuts, i like it, keep us posted :)

SuperV8
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Post by SuperV8 »

Sounds like a fun project.

I confess I don't know much about the W58 box and have heard its quite strong... but is it 500lb/f strong!

What are you planning on doing to the engine to get 500+bhp? Is the M112 able to flow that much air without becoming too inefficient?

Tom.
Dax Rush 4.6 supercharged V8 MSII

Ozzy_Uk
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Post by Ozzy_Uk »

SuperV8 wrote:Sounds like a fun project.

I confess I don't know much about the W58 box and have heard its quite strong... but is it 500lb/f strong!

What are you planning on doing to the engine to get 500+bhp? Is the M112 able to flow that much air without becoming too inefficient?

Tom.
racing green (Jag/TVR specialists) are just round the corner from me, and my friend Ian does lots of re-maps for them...

the 4.2l V8 (same engine, longer stroke), with just a pulley change, air filter, and re-map makes 525bhp on the stock 400bhp engine...

also due to the age of the chassis, (1987) i dont have to run the cat's on the engine which my friend at jaguar land rover thinks is worth 25-30bhp alone (with an appropriate re-map)!!

removal of the AC pump should gain 5-15 bhp too, that is potentially 45bhp over the stock 400 already...

that is all i am planning to do initially... and to be honest, im going to get it "working" with a mere 400bhp (250% power increase over what it was) and work from there... i may find that i dont go to the full 500+ spec for a few years untill i have done a few more driver training days, and track days... :)
4.0l supercharged Jaguar Lotus Excel V8... (in progress) 550bhp/tonne - target.

Ozzy_Uk
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Post by Ozzy_Uk »

seems im slightly off with my figures - from racing green website:
Supercharger pulley upgrade
Designed to boost supercharger speed and hence performance.The upgrade involves installing a larger supercharger drive pulley mounted on a modified crankshaft pulley; the conversion includes replacement of the idler jockey pulley and supercharger drive belt. When a Racing Green Cars exhaust upgrade and performance air filter are fitted, the power output is increased to 450 bhp from 400 bhp (XKR 4.2) and to 430 bhp from 370 bhp (XKR and XJR 4.0). Reprogramming the engine ECU takes this power increase to 470 bhp and 450 bhp respectively. Increasing the size of the crankshaft pulley is significantly better than reducing the size of the supercharger drive pulley in terms of performance gains. The latter option will spin the supercharger faster but can cause belt slippage at speed. It is recommended that Racing Green Cars fits this kit due to the complexity of the installation.
so thats 450bhp, plus 25-30 for the cat removal + 5-10 for the ac removal + 5 for proper cold air induction kit = 495bhp...

at 900kgs and 495bhp thats still 550bhp/tonne

oh and the veyron is 490bhp/tonne

that'll do ;)
4.0l supercharged Jaguar Lotus Excel V8... (in progress) 550bhp/tonne - target.

kiwicar
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Post by kiwicar »

As you have engine and box, the simplest thing to do as far as I see it is to have a quick measure up and see if you can stick the two together with a simple engine plate adaptor, rather than a full bell housing. If that is the case then a drawing of the required plate will enable you to get a suitable plate water jet cut (Ralph h on here does water jet cutting). Then get a toyota clutch disc made with a set of Jag splines in the middle of the clutch plate and job done. You need to choose a datun carefully for the drawing, but once done carefull measurment and a little time and job done!
If you are looking for off the shelf then I think you will struggle, most adaptors for this box are made in Australia and NZ, the Jag is not a very popular car out that wayand Mazda to toyota is a bit of an odd combination! :lol:
Best regards
Mike
poppet valves rule!

Ozzy_Uk
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Post by Ozzy_Uk »

kiwicar wrote:As you have engine and box, the simplest thing to do as far as I see it is to have a quick measure up and see if you can stick the two together with a simple engine plate adaptor, rather than a full bell housing. If that is the case then a drawing of the required plate will enable you to get a suitable plate water jet cut (Ralph h on here does water jet cutting). Then get a toyota clutch disc made with a set of Jag splines in the middle of the clutch plate and job done. You need to choose a datun carefully for the drawing, but once done carefull measurment and a little time and job done!
If you are looking for off the shelf then I think you will struggle, most adaptors for this box are made in Australia and NZ, the Jag is not a very popular car out that wayand Mazda to toyota is a bit of an odd combination! :lol:
Best regards
Mike
thanks Mike :)
some usefull info there!

hoping i can get an adapter plate made... im used to doing 3d cad/cam drawings myself, so can pretty much get a 3D model of what i want made on my own, and send/email to someone who can CNC or water jet it for me as long as i know what format it needs to be in :)

i built my house by doing a computer model first... hehe...

Oz
4.0l supercharged Jaguar Lotus Excel V8... (in progress) 550bhp/tonne - target.

Jono FD3
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Post by Jono FD3 »

Gonna break you some bad news matey... the W58 box is a decent unit, but the Jag lump will soon throw the gear set out the side of the box :(
Think they are safe for 350bhp but after that you are pushing it, but the 154 box is good for around 600bhp IIRC..... or the other option is to get the box out of the Mk4/5 supra turbo.... thay are bomb proof, have a very similar ratio to the 154 but has a 6th gear in there too, which might be a nice thing to have with the Jag power ;)

Jono

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Post by stevieturbo »

Contact Ralph85 here, he can sort the waterjet out.


As for the actual gearbox. The Toyota boxes are strong, and your weight goal is pretty light. So next will depend on usage. But as others have suggested, I would be concerned about the W series behind that sort of power/torque.

I used a R-154 on my old TT RV8 in a much heavier car for a few years. I did bust a tooth on 3rd gear once, but other than that they were faultless. And the 154 is much much stronger than the W series.

Of course, the 154's fetch a premium now and are slightly bigger than the W series.

Sounds like a cool project though
9.85 @ 144.75mph
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0

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Post by stevieturbo »

Jono FD3 wrote:Gonna break you some bad news matey... the W58 box is a decent unit, but the Jag lump will soon throw the gear set out the side of the box :(
Think they are safe for 350bhp but after that you are pushing it, but the 154 box is good for around 600bhp IIRC..... or the other option is to get the box out of the Mk4/5 supra turbo.... thay are bomb proof, have a very similar ratio to the 154 but has a 6th gear in there too, which might be a nice thing to have with the Jag power ;)

Jono
R154 is the 5 speed from Supra turbo and has the separate bellhousing as per W series ( but different BH so not interchangeable )

The later more modern cars are a 6 speed Getrag unit which is mega strong, but also has an integral bellhousing and they cost even more. So may be much harder to work with. Although if waterjetting an adaptor from engine to BH, that would offer you the most flexibility with box fitments.
9.85 @ 144.75mph
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0

unstable load
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Post by unstable load »

I like what you are planning!
I'd pull the box out the car to make it easier to work with while matching things up for the adaptor plate.
Cheers,
John

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Post by DEVONMAN »

Hi Oz,

Great project.

In case you are not aware, you need to keep receipts etc for the proposed engine as DVLA will/may ask for proof of origin , ie doner car details etc., and sometimes an engineers report.

They do this to deter guys who try to get a lower road tax band by claiming they have installed a smaller engine.
In you case it's the opposite but it will depend on the attitude of the person dealing with your revised V5 document.

As a matter of course I would submit the documents when you apply for the revised V5, and this tends to blind them with science.

You may of course intend to keep quiet about the mods but a "jobs worth" MOT guy could shop you.

None of this has detered me in the past, so good luck with the project.

I'd be interested to hear other peoples view/experiences in this matter.

Regards Denis
1950 A40 Devon Hotrod with 5.0 twin turbo RV8.
EDIS8 wasted spark, Holley Injection.
Been as far as the Moon and back in 57 years of driving. Same Car, 5 engine upgrades !!!


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Ozzy_Uk
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Post by Ozzy_Uk »

DEVONMAN wrote:Hi Oz,

Great project.

In case you are not aware, you need to keep receipts etc for the proposed engine as DVLA will/may ask for proof of origin , ie doner car details etc., and sometimes an engineers report.

They do this to deter guys who try to get a lower road tax band by claiming they have installed a smaller engine.
In you case it's the opposite but it will depend on the attitude of the person dealing with your revised V5 document.

As a matter of course I would submit the documents when you apply for the revised V5, and this tends to blind them with science.

You may of course intend to keep quiet about the mods but a "jobs worth" MOT guy could shop you.

None of this has detered me in the past, so good luck with the project.

I'd be interested to hear other peoples view/experiences in this matter.

Regards Denis
thanks for the info... have always declared mods for insurance etc...
i still have the V5 for the Jag, as im still the owner of it, al-be-it in bits mostly now... i bought it cash on ebay as a "non-runner" but actually it was just a coolant hose with a pin hole that was causing the coolant leak! gaffa-tape round it for 3 weeks whilst i ran the car to check for any other faults and it was flawless... paid £1100 for the jag, total bagin, especially as i got £500 for the auto box alone!

as for the comments above about the W58 box, my primary use of this is track days, which are not really hard on the clutch... the Excel was still on its original clutch and gearbox when i dismantled it at 135,000 miles! had done about 12 track days on it in the time i had it...

the gearbox is coming out soon, as it has to be sent off to be rebuilt anyway...

just need to get my engine lift back from my friend who had to dismantle his elise trophy race car (i pit crew for him at endurance races), then we can get on with the fun bits :)

oh and i have a garage i have to build too... lol!

anyone know if there is anything i can do to uprate the W58 internals?
seems lots of supra owners in the US are using the W58 with 600bhp plus without issue...
i think a lot of it depends how you treat it...
(and how good your map is)...
4.0l supercharged Jaguar Lotus Excel V8... (in progress) 550bhp/tonne - target.

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