95 rover v8 nas and E.D.I.S conversion help

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DaveEFI
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Re: 95 rover v8 nas and E.D.I.S conversion help

Post by DaveEFI »

95nas wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:20 am
Ok lads, I have resolved my situation.
turns out to be it was a blunder when I wired the MJ/E, for some reason, I misread the pin location of pin 2 and pin 10. according to instructions (and my personal notes during install), pin #10 is to be used if using TPS. TPS signal on 14CUX is taken from pin 20. pin #2 on MJ4 is listed as Vref or voltage reference to TPS, "if MJ4 is map, leave unconnected". well further reading states or asumes that ML4 is being used in conjunction with Mega Squirt, thus MJ4 would supply reference to Mega Squirt TPS. basically I was back feeding voltage to 14CUX TPS thru its signal wire.
I re read all my foot notes, install notes and instructions and looked at the multi pin socket of the ML4 and realized my blunder. pin #10 was empty and thus I wired it, tested and voila. all read well, load chart showed TPS value, TPS gained ability to calibrate and all works well (for now). next upgrade
a stage 4 rpi cam.
Good to know you're sorted. It can be a real problem sharing sensors with two different ECUs. Be curious to find out if it sorts your problem, or if there was something odd when you were using just MAP and tach. Can't see any reason why that would go flat over 4000 rpm. Could you post a screenshot of the map you used?


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Re: 95 rover v8 nas and E.D.I.S conversion help

Post by GDCobra »

DaveEFI wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:47 am
The SD1 model is an EFI, which came with the Lucas 4CU (flapper) injection as standard.

Apologies Dave, I've confused the heck out of all this. Somehow I read your post as 14CU rather than 4CU, I then further confused the confusion looking for information on 14CU. Need to get these glasses checked!

OK so your contact just wanted to change the engine and not perform major surgery on the electronics. That makes sense and I guess as long as the extra air required by the larger engine doesn't max out the flapper that should work no problem. My understanding is the flapper system although electronic is analogue rather than digital so there are 'tricks' with using different and maybe variable resistors and also rising rate fuel pressure regulators. I guess this is similar to where some 14CUX Hotwire users swap out the standard air flow meter to the later, larger diameter, GEMS type.

I actually don't think the conversion to 14CUX would be too difficult, probably easier than the job I had grafting the system onto a carb'd car but if the owner is happy with it all is good.

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Re: 95 rover v8 nas and E.D.I.S conversion help

Post by GDCobra »

95nas wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:20 am
Ok lads, I have resolved my situation.
turns out to be it was a blunder when I wired the MJ/E, for some reason, I misread the pin location of pin 2 and pin 10. according to instructions (and my personal notes during install), pin #10 is to be used if using TPS. TPS signal on 14CUX is taken from pin 20. pin #2 on MJ4 is listed as Vref or voltage reference to TPS, "if MJ4 is map, leave unconnected". well further reading states or asumes that ML4 is being used in conjunction with Mega Squirt, thus MJ4 would supply reference to Mega Squirt TPS. basically I was back feeding voltage to 14CUX TPS thru its signal wire.
I re read all my foot notes, install notes and instructions and looked at the multi pin socket of the ML4 and realized my blunder. pin #10 was empty and thus I wired it, tested and voila. all read well, load chart showed TPS value, TPS gained ability to calibrate and all works well (for now). next upgrade
a stage 4 rpi cam.
Great to hear you got the TPS sensor sorted although I don't fully understand how the TPS is being shared.
The TPS is native to the 14CUX so it has a Vref and ground from that system and acts as a voltage divider so the variable voltage will appear on the signal line. If you simply take that signal line and feed it to the MJ I'd have thought you could have issue with the reference, the ground and Vref on the MJ could be different to the 14CUX.
I guess if they share a common ground, which they should, than that probably sorts it.
Any chance you could give us a sketch of the connections?

Sorry for all the questions but I'm an inquisitive sort!

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Re: 95 rover v8 nas and E.D.I.S conversion help

Post by 95nas »

GDCobra, the wiring to the MJ is totally normal per the instructions provided by Trigger-wheels when I received the order. I misread the numbering port pin out on the MJ connector and used Vref pin to connect to TPS when I should have used pin #10. my notes were hand written and nothing drawn, other wise all normal. I am using TPS signal and not MAP as the MJ is not equipped for MAP use.

DAVE-EFI, the engine map I am using is the one listed as roverV8 on the drop down menu found in the CD which came in the kit from trigger-wheels.
I attempted to keep wiring as close to factory as possible, so power and ground are shared between 14cux and MJ on same circuit. power and ground to EDIS module is the same used for distributor coil. basically if ignition fuse fails I can go to fuse box label, identify and replace. I don't have to figure out aftermarket wiring (this is the reason I don't have many notes). for coil packs, I was not fond of the ford coils or ht leads (ignition wires in the us).

I researched and found "performance distributors" they carry a product called sultans of spark (S.O.S) coils for the 99-04 bosh ignition rovers as found on 99-04 disco2 and 99-02 range rover, also custom ordered their HT leads with cylinder numbering and length to match the distributor location (Rover installed the coils at back of engine, I installed them at front where dizzy once resided), but with rover not ford coil ends.

for coil electrical connectors, trigger-wheels supplies those to fit ford coils supplied. I visited a breaker and took the bosh coil connectors, that way I could use the Rover SOS coils at 60,000 volts of spark, yes when they arch on flesh it stings (guess how I learned, haha).
14CUX uses spark signal from coil in order to pulse open the injectors, this explained in the EDIS instructions where the injector trigger wire is connected to all the coils thru diodes. tach signal is read thru the alternator so I did not explore EDIS on this regard.

for now I have briefly explored changing maps, I am happy with settings. my rover was originally equipped with 4.2 and it's relevant ecu and chip, I learned this factory fuel mapping is the same as used on the gems 4.6 thus, when I upgraded to 4.6 it just worked. I plan on retrofitting sagem/gems MAF. further more, I have a friend whom has been able to change fueling using rover gauge, I may tap on his shoulder just to tweak maps a bit.
below is initial EDIS ignition cycle, HT leads are now better sorted than the picture shows.

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Re: 95 rover v8 nas and E.D.I.S conversion help

Post by 95nas »

coil packs.jpg

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Re: 95 rover v8 nas and E.D.I.S conversion help

Post by GDCobra »

95nas wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:01 pm
for now I have briefly explored changing maps, I am happy with settings. my rover was originally equipped with 4.2 and it's relevant ecu and chip, I learned this factory fuel mapping is the same as used on the gems 4.6 thus, when I upgraded to 4.6 it just worked. I plan on retrofitting sagem/gems MAF. further more, I have a friend whom has been able to change fueling using rover gauge, I may tap on his shoulder just to tweak maps a bit.
below is initial EDIS ignition cycle, HT leads are now better sorted than the picture shows.
RoverGauge is a really useful tool, even if you only use it to see what is going on in the system (I've so far not done any mapping on my car, but have used some different tunes, TVR based in my case), it's also handy for tweaking the idle speed and other 'satelite' settings although this does mean you have to burn a new chip. Best of all it's free, although you do have to buy a cable, don't know how you'd get on with that in the US, presumably someone makes them.

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Re: 95 rover v8 nas and E.D.I.S conversion help

Post by 95nas »

I have autologic, rover gauge, rsw eas software and snap-on scanner. all of this for a few reasons, first and foremost I own 3 rovers and owned 14 since 1995. I used to manage an independent land rover service shop and up until 2010 I was land rover factory certified technician.

my experience with all of that software, has been limited to data read, code clearing, diagnostics and on eas only, height programming. My friend owns 6 or so rovers, he is some kind of computer software savant and more than once he has mentioned, the ability of reprograming fuel maps using rover gauge and some obscure arduino coding. I will get all planned upgrades completed and then, I will annoy him for his expertise.
meantime I will enjoy spring in the mid-atlantic US.

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Re: 95 rover v8 nas and E.D.I.S conversion help

Post by DaveEFI »

95nas wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:01 pm

14CUX uses spark signal from coil in order to pulse open the injectors, this explained in the EDIS instructions where the injector trigger wire is connected to all the coils thru diodes. tach signal is read thru the alternator so I did not explore EDIS on this regard.
You've got me confused now. MegaJolt has a tach output (tach meaning the RPM signal) to send on to the fuel ECU. If there is a resistor between the coil and Lucas ECU on the original, just delete it.

The diodes trick is only need for a rev-counter originally connected direct to the coil negative, as that requires a larger pulse than the 5v one provided by MJ or EDIS.
Dave
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Re: 95 rover v8 nas and E.D.I.S conversion help

Post by GDCobra »

DaveEFI wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:48 am
95nas wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:01 pm

14CUX uses spark signal from coil in order to pulse open the injectors, this explained in the EDIS instructions where the injector trigger wire is connected to all the coils thru diodes. tach signal is read thru the alternator so I did not explore EDIS on this regard.
You've got me confused now. MegaJolt has a tach output (tach meaning the RPM signal) to send on to the fuel ECU. If there is a resistor between the coil and Lucas ECU on the original, just delete it.

The diodes trick is only need for a rev-counter originally connected direct to the coil negative, as that requires a larger pulse than the 5v one provided by MJ or EDIS.
When I fitted the Nodiz system to mine late last year I found that Tach signal would not allow the 14CUX to run and I also had to use the diode method to get it working along with the tachometer, don't know why but that's how it was/is. The diode system works so I've not investigated any further although I would prefer to use the Tach signal from the ignition, less to go wrong and I don't know how reliable the diodes are.

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Re: 95 rover v8 nas and E.D.I.S conversion help

Post by DaveEFI »

On the 4CU there is a 6K8 line resistor between coil and ECU. Remove that, and it triggers nicely from a 5V signal. Not sure about the 14 CU.

FWIW, the diodes circuit from EDIS coils didn't work too well with my SD1 rev-counter. Ended up using a pulse amplifying circuit.
Dave
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Re: 95 rover v8 nas and E.D.I.S conversion help

Post by 95nas »

DaveEFI wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:48 am
95nas wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:01 pm

14CUX uses spark signal from coil in order to pulse open the injectors, this explained in the EDIS instructions where the injector trigger wire is connected to all the coils thru diodes. tach signal is read thru the alternator so I did not explore EDIS on this regard.
You've got me confused now. MegaJolt has a tach output (tach meaning the RPM signal) to send on to the fuel ECU. If there is a resistor between the coil and Lucas ECU on the original, just delete it.

The diodes trick is only need for a rev-counter originally connected direct to the coil negative, as that requires a larger pulse than the 5v one provided by MJ or EDIS.
the EDIS kit had been acquired a year before the install took place, I took inventory of parts inside the box and the diode kit took me by surprise. I contacted trigger wheels and we exchanged emails back and forth. one of my many questions was the use of the tach trigger on the edis module to trigger the injector pulse. the response from TW suggested, the signal out of the edis had been deemed unusable thus, the diode kit and its suggested use. I did not explore further and simply followed instructions. it worked and "if it a'int broke don't fix it" applies. lol
on day of install, I printed all emails, took all instructions and parts and went down the rabbit hole. when I would reach an impasse, I referred to one of the emails and find or decipher the solution.
when completed the engine came to life on first turn of key, something this truck did the first 3 yrs of its life (I have had it since new) and then failed to do after its first tune up . (immediate starts).
this is not a popular conversion in the US, racers use magneto systems with distributors, in the last 15 yrs the popularity of manufacturer oriented engine management has been directed to engine and systems package, I/E you buy an ls and then contact aftermarket for an ls controller and wiring and it keeps it factory looking, if for a daily driver. for a hot rod you may go carbureted or even better a modified management system to fit your performance needs. (based on how deep your pockets may be)
all of these reasons plus the fact that some americans see the land rover as a symbol of status and others don't know what it is, there is very little support out side of dealership. for instance, the defender is normally referred to as "the other jeep" or the "jeep wanna-be".
when I walk in a parts store asking for for a simple oil filter, I tell them Land Rover Range Rover. they reply "what year Ranger?" in reference to the ford ranger..it is amusing and frustrating at the same time.
Buick engine builders, do not carry the aluminum buick. many don't know or fail to recognize the rover v8 as a buick. even the later AJ engines as found in many fords is not recognized as a ford. now you see my difficulty in proper support.

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Re: 95 rover v8 nas and E.D.I.S conversion help

Post by GDCobra »

DaveEFI wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:44 pm
On the 4CU there is a 6K8 line resistor between coil and ECU. Remove that, and it triggers nicely from a 5V signal. Not sure about the 14 CU.

FWIW, the diodes circuit from EDIS coils didn't work too well with my SD1 rev-counter. Ended up using a pulse amplifying circuit.
I did try linking without the resistor but that didn't work either. I must admit I could have fooled myself as there is a junction in the Black/White wire which leads to the coil, each going to a 6k7 (or possibly 8) resistor then feeding to a White/Blue wire (clever making them same colour!).
It is possible I got the wrong one. Did mean to go back and try again but as I needed the diode setup for the tachometer anyway I didn't go any further with it. May have another go at some point, I've kept the Tach wire in my loom.

Just for completeness. I traced the other White/Blue wire it went to another plug/socket on the EFi loom, effectively passing straight through and having no part to play in the EFi system, presume it went to the dashboard tacho in the original vehicle, my tacho takes a feed from the cars loom already under the bonnet so didn't need that.

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Re: 95 rover v8 nas and E.D.I.S conversion help

Post by GDCobra »

95nas wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:07 pm


this is not a popular conversion in the US, racers use magneto systems with distributors,
Wow, magnetos. I didn't realise they existed after the first part of the 20th century.
I guess different solutions grow up in different regions for many reasons so I'd never say any was right or wrong but I don't understand why anyone would use a distributor (or any kind) unless there was no other option. I guess if points were still employed there could be an argument for simplicity but beyond that I can't see any advantage and many disadvantages.

Good luck with your MJ setup hope it delivers all you are expecting.

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Re: 95 rover v8 nas and E.D.I.S conversion help

Post by stevieturbo »

GDCobra wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:56 pm
95nas wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:07 pm


this is not a popular conversion in the US, racers use magneto systems with distributors,
Wow, magnetos. I didn't realise they existed after the first part of the 20th century.
I guess different solutions grow up in different regions for many reasons so I'd never say any was right or wrong but I don't understand why anyone would use a distributor (or any kind) unless there was no other option. I guess if points were still employed there could be an argument for simplicity but beyond that I can't see any advantage and many disadvantages.

Good luck with your MJ setup hope it delivers all you are expecting.

Some racing in the US are stuck with old rules and might force the use of a dizzy. Other than that, those still using a dizzy are just stuck in the dark ages really.
Most who've woken up to modern times are using 1 coil per cylinder, except perhaps top fuel which I think still use Magnetos...and a lot of that is also mandated in rules

interesting article on it
https://www.enginelabs.com/news/msd-kee ... id-system/
9.85 @ 144.75mph
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0

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Re: 95 rover v8 nas and E.D.I.S conversion help

Post by DaveEFI »

GDCobra wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:47 pm
DaveEFI wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:44 pm
On the 4CU there is a 6K8 line resistor between coil and ECU. Remove that, and it triggers nicely from a 5V signal. Not sure about the 14 CU.

FWIW, the diodes circuit from EDIS coils didn't work too well with my SD1 rev-counter. Ended up using a pulse amplifying circuit.
I did try linking without the resistor but that didn't work either. I must admit I could have fooled myself as there is a junction in the Black/White wire which leads to the coil, each going to a 6k7 (or possibly 8) resistor then feeding to a White/Blue wire (clever making them same colour!).
It is possible I got the wrong one. Did mean to go back and try again but as I needed the diode setup for the tachometer anyway I didn't go any further with it. May have another go at some point, I've kept the Tach wire in my loom.

Just for completeness. I traced the other White/Blue wire it went to another plug/socket on the EFi loom, effectively passing straight through and having no part to play in the EFi system, presume it went to the dashboard tacho in the original vehicle, my tacho takes a feed from the cars loom already under the bonnet so didn't need that.
On a factory loom, I'd expect the ECU feed and the rev counter feed both to go to the coil negative. With only the ECU feed having the series resistor. I'm surprised the low volts tach signal from MJ doesn't work with the resistor bypassed, as it does on the 4CU, which according to the diagrams I've seen uses the same value resistor as the 14CU. I'd give it a try again, making sure you have the correct tach inpit wire to the 14CU.
Dave
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