Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

General Chat About Electrics, And Ignition Systems.

Moderator: phpBB2 - Administrators

Post Reply
stevieturbo
Forum Contributor
Forum Contributor
Posts: 3979
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:22 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by stevieturbo »

Or they're not giving much away, but looks like a Nodiz ?

http://www.tornadosystems.com/product/r ... 3-9-14cux/


9.85 @ 144.75mph
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0

GDCobra
Knows His Stuff
Knows His Stuff
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:21 am
Location: North West

Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by GDCobra »

stevieturbo wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:35 pm
Or they're not giving much away, but looks like a Nodiz ?

http://www.tornadosystems.com/product/r ... 3-9-14cux/
Aye, I have seen that one and also thought looked like the Nordiz ECU, I have pretty much all the other kit (some of it twice over) so no point on paying again.

They also don’t mention an external MAP Sensor.

stevieturbo
Forum Contributor
Forum Contributor
Posts: 3979
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:22 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by stevieturbo »

It does also say call for exact requirements.

Each install can be different, some may want throttle based, some MAP, some...maybe neither.

If it was me...I'd still be doing the 8x LS coil route though. Mainly for a neater install.
9.85 @ 144.75mph
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0

GDCobra
Knows His Stuff
Knows His Stuff
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:21 am
Location: North West

Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by GDCobra »

stevieturbo wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:52 pm
It does also say call for exact requirements.

Each install can be different, some may want throttle based, some MAP, some...maybe neither.

If it was me...I'd still be doing the 8x LS coil route though. Mainly for a neater install.
I can't deny that the CNP setup would be neater and also offer some possible advantages due to short HT leads with no crossover between and additional opportunity for dwell as they only fire once per 2 revolutions however I'm not sure much of that would be realised in additional performance on a Rover V8 whch is only slightly breathed on with no addition to the upper RPM limit. And I'd have a lot more work to do making up mounts for the coils which at the moment I don't have the time or the facilities to do, I'm also quite tight for space on the near side of the engine which would be a challenge.

stevieturbo
Forum Contributor
Forum Contributor
Posts: 3979
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:22 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by stevieturbo »

GDCobra wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:53 am
stevieturbo wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:52 pm
It does also say call for exact requirements.

Each install can be different, some may want throttle based, some MAP, some...maybe neither.

If it was me...I'd still be doing the 8x LS coil route though. Mainly for a neater install.
I can't deny that the CNP setup would be neater and also offer some possible advantages due to short HT leads with no crossover between and additional opportunity for dwell as they only fire once per 2 revolutions however I'm not sure much of that would be realised in additional performance on a Rover V8 whch is only slightly breathed on with no addition to the upper RPM limit. And I'd have a lot more work to do making up mounts for the coils which at the moment I don't have the time or the facilities to do, I'm also quite tight for space on the near side of the engine which would be a challenge.
Unless you go for a full sequential setup requiring a cam/phase sensor, they'd still be firing twice per cycle as per a wasted spark setup. And for that, you're into more money for the ecu. And for a huge number of engines...zero benefit.
9.85 @ 144.75mph
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0

GDCobra
Knows His Stuff
Knows His Stuff
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:21 am
Location: North West

Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by GDCobra »

stevieturbo wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:03 pm
Unless you go for a full sequential setup requiring a cam/phase sensor, they'd still be firing twice per cycle as per a wasted spark setup. And for that, you're into more money for the ecu. And for a huge number of engines...zero benefit.
Must admit I hadn't thought that deeply into CNP as the work required just to get the hardware physically in place takes it off the agenda but a good point you mention about the additional capabilty from the ECU to make the most of this and as I say I would not expect to see any/many gains over and above what I'll get from GEMS system. Not for my engine at least.

User avatar
ChrisJC
Top Dog
Top Dog
Posts: 5039
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:13 pm
Location: Northants / Cambs
Contact:

Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by ChrisJC »

I _think_ that the point of the Camshaft Position Sensor is so that if the ECU detects a misfire, it knows which one of the two cylinders is on the firing stroke and can shut off the fuel to that cylinder only. This prevents unburned hydrocarbons going through the cat and out of the tailpipe. Emitting unburned hydrocarbons is a big no-no from a legal point of view!

I don't believe it offers much if any advantage to a properly running engine.

Chris.
--
Series IIA 4.6 V8
R/R P38 4.6 V8
R/R L405 4.4 SDV8

GDCobra
Knows His Stuff
Knows His Stuff
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:21 am
Location: North West

Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by GDCobra »

ChrisJC wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:43 pm
I _think_ that the point of the Camshaft Position Sensor is so that if the ECU detects a misfire, it knows which one of the two cylinders is on the firing stroke and can shut off the fuel to that cylinder only. This prevents unburned hydrocarbons going through the cat and out of the tailpipe. Emitting unburned hydrocarbons is a big no-no from a legal point of view!

I don't believe it offers much if any advantage to a properly running engine.

Chris.
The cam position sensor tells the ECU where the engine is in its cycle (2 revolutions for a 4 stroke), each of the single coils is then fired only when needed, every other revolution. In this way each coil is dedicated to its own cylinder and gets more opportunity for charging which becomes more important as the RPMs rise. I still have the standard 6000 RPM limit so probably (definitely) won’t see any performance benefit.

GDCobra
Knows His Stuff
Knows His Stuff
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:21 am
Location: North West

Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by GDCobra »

This

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14898&start=15

Is the thread I mentioned earlier regarding the VW coils, if I’ve understood correctly each pack has 4 individual coils which are “smart” (why the hell does everything have to described as “smart” these day particularly when they are anything bu?) so can be triggered by low voltage which presumably means I coul trigger a coil in each pack with a single ECU output.

Still wasted spark but neat install with no HT lead crossing. Must admit I think that install looks good but could be better still if the coil packs were mounted on the rockers or inner wings allowing even shorter plug leads. May not looks as neat though.

stevieturbo
Forum Contributor
Forum Contributor
Posts: 3979
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:22 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by stevieturbo »

ChrisJC wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:43 pm
I _think_ that the point of the Camshaft Position Sensor is so that if the ECU detects a misfire, it knows which one of the two cylinders is on the firing stroke and can shut off the fuel to that cylinder only. This prevents unburned hydrocarbons going through the cat and out of the tailpipe. Emitting unburned hydrocarbons is a big no-no from a legal point of view!

I don't believe it offers much if any advantage to a properly running engine.

Chris.

Only very modern systems have misfire fuel shutdowns and it has little to do with a cam sensor, and misfire detection itself, can be done many ways, and doesn't necessarily require a cam/phase sensor.
If it had one coil per cylinder and each coil has misfire detection feedback....then it can be determined which cylinder has the issue from that, without any cam or phase sensor.

A cam/phase sensor is essential for proper sequential fuel injection and sparks, always has been as there must be some means to ID cylinder 1.
9.85 @ 144.75mph
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0

stevieturbo
Forum Contributor
Forum Contributor
Posts: 3979
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:22 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by stevieturbo »

GDCobra wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:47 pm
This

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14898&start=15

Is the thread I mentioned earlier regarding the VW coils, if I’ve understood correctly each pack has 4 individual coils which are “smart” (why the hell does everything have to described as “smart” these day particularly when they are anything bu?) so can be triggered by low voltage which presumably means I coul trigger a coil in each pack with a single ECU output.

Still wasted spark but neat install with no HT lead crossing. Must admit I think that install looks good but could be better still if the coil packs were mounted on the rockers or inner wings allowing even shorter plug leads. May not looks as neat though.
The whole naming of coils smart or dumb, is in itself dumb. And as already stated, unless the coils you refer to have dedicated triggers for each individual tower....you're back to wasted spark and HT leads passing from one side to the other.
Such coils do exist, I have seen them...but damned if I can remember what from. They are certainly not common though.

But yes, coils with built in ignitors, you can easily trigger more than one coil from a single ecu outout...ie LS coils ( or a plethora of other modern coils )
9.85 @ 144.75mph
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0

DaveEFI
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 4603
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:27 pm
Location: SW London, UK

Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by DaveEFI »

From what I've read, the Nodiz come with 4 ignitors to allow plain wasted spark coils. And decent coil drivers are actually quite expensive in electronic component terms - at least to buy in relatively small quantities. If you go to active coils - either wasted spark ones, or individual ones, that makes the Nodiz more expensive than needed.

On my SD1, I mounted the 4 EDIS coils on a bracket made for the job from IIRC Trigger Wheels. Fitted it to the alternator bracket. Of course there is some lead crossover, but I've not had a problem with that in the ten years or so I've been running EDIS. Nor have I had a problem with the EDIS module. mounted where the original single coil was on the SD1.
Dave
London SW
Rover SD1 VDP EFI
MegaSquirt2 V3
EDIS8
Tech Edge 2Y

GDCobra
Knows His Stuff
Knows His Stuff
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:21 am
Location: North West

Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by GDCobra »

DaveEFI wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:57 pm
From what I've read, the Nodiz come with 4 ignitors to allow plain wasted spark coils. And decent coil drivers are actually quite expensive in electronic component terms - at least to buy in relatively small quantities. If you go to active coils - either wasted spark ones, or individual ones, that makes the Nodiz more expensive than needed.

I'm not sure I understand this.
Assuming by "plain wasted spark coils" you mean a coil where the trigger wire from the ECU is connected directly to the coil winding and so the ECU will have to be built to handle the higher voltage flyback spike and therefor has to be built to handle this (presumably more robust transistors and possibly other components), which is more expensive.
Compared to a system driving "smart"/"active"/"or whatever" coils where the trigger input is isolated from the coil activity via built in ignitor circuitry?

If so that makes sense but I should also mean that the system has more freedom of choice when it comes to coil usage. I'm assuming that, price aside, there is no downside to triggering smarty-pants coils with an output capable of driving the dumb-as-a-box-of-rocks plain wasted spark coils? And presumably the circuitry involved would be less stressed while doing so?


DaveEFI wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:57 pm

On my SD1, I mounted the 4 EDIS coils on a bracket made for the job from IIRC Trigger Wheels. Fitted it to the alternator bracket. Of course there is some lead crossover, but I've not had a problem with that in the ten years or so I've been running EDIS. Nor have I had a problem with the EDIS module. mounted where the original single coil was on the SD1.
I understand there are off the shelf brackets available for the EDIS coils but how many different standards of Rover engine are there hence how much chance do I have of getting the right one? Also my engine is not necessarily standard in this area, my top hose is different to some as is my belt drive to the alternator. I'm sure not insurmountable but why make work for myself when I have a ready made mount for the GEMS pack?

Some that I have seen mount the coils where the distributor currently is, I want to be able to keep the dizzy in place for a short time while I get the ignition system up and running so that it can continue to drive the oil pump, I probably won't get around to cutting and shutting my spare dizzy until the ignition system is up and running.

GDCobra
Knows His Stuff
Knows His Stuff
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:21 am
Location: North West

Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by GDCobra »

stevieturbo wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:33 pm

The whole naming of coils smart or dumb, is in itself dumb. And as already stated, unless the coils you refer to have dedicated triggers for each individual tower....you're back to wasted spark and HT leads passing from one side to the other.
Such coils do exist, I have seen them...but damned if I can remember what from. They are certainly not common though.

But yes, coils with built in ignitors, you can easily trigger more than one coil from a single ecu outout...ie LS coils ( or a plethora of other modern coils )
I probably was not clear and I still need to look into those coil packs and their capability.
As I understood from the content of that thread, the VW coil packs contained 4 individual coils (to fire each cylinder of a 4 cylinder engine ) with ignitor built in (can be triggered from a logic level input). I may be wrong about some or all of that, time may tell.

Obviously with a 4 output ECU this would still be working wasted spark (that setup was running MS3 so presumably could be 8 individual coil triggers) but now with 2 coils firing at a time rather than one coil with 2 HT leads and sparkplugs. Arguably a 'better' system although possible no major benefit in reality.
The benefits of this setup would be neatness (pathetic I know but the underbonnet appearance does matter to me) and shorter HT leads with no crossover.
I'm not suggesting that I will go that way initially but could be an option for the future, I find it difficult to stop myself 'improving' the car.

stevieturbo
Forum Contributor
Forum Contributor
Posts: 3979
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:22 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by stevieturbo »

DaveEFI wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:57 pm
From what I've read, the Nodiz come with 4 ignitors to allow plain wasted spark coils. And decent coil drivers are actually quite expensive in electronic component terms - at least to buy in relatively small quantities. If you go to active coils - either wasted spark ones, or individual ones, that makes the Nodiz more expensive than needed.

On my SD1, I mounted the 4 EDIS coils on a bracket made for the job from IIRC Trigger Wheels. Fitted it to the alternator bracket. Of course there is some lead crossover, but I've not had a problem with that in the ten years or so I've been running EDIS. Nor have I had a problem with the EDIS module. mounted where the original single coil was on the SD1.

Leads crossing over isn't a problem persay. Same way a dizzy with HT leads flying everywhere isn't a problem. Compared to modern stuff, it just looks crap and is untidy when it is so simple to make it neater.

Keep it simple.

Coils with built in ignitors, coil near plug so short HT leads and whatever control/ecu option you want. Just setup in wasted spark as you have no cam trigger.
Modern coils are all cheap, plentiful either new or used and pretty much all very powerful.

I wouldn't bother with regular inductive coils. In general they are not as powerful, but these days they are just less common, so would be fewer options if you are wanting new parts. There's nothing wrong with them of course though.


And although you might say ignition drivers are not cheap in electronic terms.....in real terms they are still dirt cheap. Surely still only £2, 3, 4, maybe at most £5 each for a high current option ?


In order to drive a IGBT style coil with a regular inductive driver setup, the trigger needs to be inverted. Not all controllers can do this.

ie.
Inductive will ground the trigger coil input to charge it ( coil has a permanent 12v supply ), and often either totally remove the ground to fire ( points ), or in electronic terms, apply 12v to the trigger input ( no potential difference, same thing, coil fires )

IGBT or modern internal ignitor coils will usually apply a voltage to tell the coil to charge, ( 5-12v usually ) and as per above but opposite so to speak, 0v at the trigger then fires the coil.

So dwell from one to the other are opposites.

a 10% dwell duty on Inductive applied to IGBT would be 90% and burn things out in no time.

So to repeat....Maxxecu Mini, LS coils...simple, neat, tidy, no long or messy HT leads

But with whatever coils you choose, you will need to find out what is a suitable dwell time for them
9.85 @ 144.75mph
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0

Post Reply

Return to “Electrical & Ignition Area”