Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

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GDCobra
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Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by GDCobra »

I'm just investigating distributorless ignition systems and looking for some advice.

I've mainly been looking at the Megajolt but via reading a thread on here I've also started looking at Nodiz.

I'm looking to use GEMS coils as these mount in an OEM location on the rear of my inlet manifold so I have no work to do mounting wise (and it looks like it was meant to be there) I also have a couple of sets of these so makes sense to use.

I'm told the Megajolt-EDIS should/may be able to work with these coils but no evidence of testing so I'm on my own. I'm also told that Nodiz will work with these coils which gives me more confidence.

I'm tending to lean towards Nodiz at the moment as it does not rely on the EDIS module which are no longer available (and I don't think have been made new for some time).

Anybody got experience or advice of either system, hopefully good but equally interested to hear of bad?

As per title I'm also runnin the 14 CUX Hotwire EFi, this currently gets an engine speed signal from the single coil, it seems like I can get a diode based circuit from variaous sources which will take inputs for all 4 coils and emulate this signal. Hopefully this would also drive tachometer
Any words of advice on this also greatly appreciated.



stevieturbo
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Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by stevieturbo »

Whatever suits...but pretty sure MJ must use EDIS ?

So probably not suitable for you.

Something a bit more modern and more flexible would probably make more sense. Although why only looking to change sparks ? and not also take fuel control along with it ?
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GDCobra
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Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by GDCobra »

stevieturbo wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:01 pm
Whatever suits...but pretty sure MJ must use EDIS ?

So probably not suitable for you.

Something a bit more modern and more flexible would probably make more sense. Although why only looking to change sparks ? and not also take fuel control along with it ?
Thanks for the response Steve.
I may be totally off with my estimation of the EDIS unit, they may be perfectly reliable and I could (and would) get hold of at least one replacement so I'm not completely writing off the MJ system. On it's plus side it has the MAP sensor built in and USB comm's.

The Nodiz seems to have similar funcitonality but no EDIS which may be an advantage, main plus point is it seems muc more hopeful of working with the GEMS coils so I don't have to start working out how/where to mount the Ford coil packs. Shame that the MAP sensor is an add-on, would be neater to have a one box solution but not a problem and at least this would be a new component.

As either system is replacing the single coil with 4 I have the issue of replacing the signal to the tacho and 14CUX but I'm sure others must have done this in the past so must be do-able.

On the fueling side of things I'm quite happy with the Hotwire system, I did have a play with Megasquirt some time ago and still have that unit gathering dust in my office draw, if just seemed too much bother in the end. Every time I tried to make progress with it there had been a software or firmware update, then the programming software changes and I just lost interest.
What do you see as the advantagtes of changing the EFi system?

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Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by garrycol »

Edis is pretty reliable and simple so if you get a spare unit all should be good for a long time. The other advantage of using Megajolt/Edis is that the engine will still run just on Edis - I am slowly converting my RV8 to injection and at the moment the ignition is just running on EDIs and driving the vehicle you wouldn't know there is no advance or retard and the engine runs great. So if a default mode is needed if the ECU fails EDIS does a good job.

Garry

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Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by GDCobra »

garrycol wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:54 am
Edis is pretty reliable and simple so if you get a spare unit all should be good for a long time. The other advantage of using Megajolt/Edis is that the engine will still run just on Edis - I am slowly converting my RV8 to injection and at the moment the ignition is just running on EDIs and driving the vehicle you wouldn't know there is no advance or retard and the engine runs great. So if a default mode is needed if the ECU fails EDIS does a good job.

Garry
Hi Garry
Thanks for the input. That's an interesting point you make, I've been putting a lot of focus on the EDIS failure due to being a second hand unit of some age but not really thought of the control unit failing.
I'm amazed you don't see a big difference in engine behaviour with fixed, 10°, timing, particularly at higher RPM

Good luck with your EFi conversion.

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Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by DaveEFI »

EDIS is said to be one of the most reliable systems around.

Disadvantages. You can't set its rev limit. You can't adjust the dwell, so may be stuck with EDIS coils for best results. It is a bit long in the tooth.

No reason not to use any after market engine ECU in an ignition only mode. That would also give the choice of using smart coils with built in igniters and sequential ignition too - if you choose. The greater production runs of a full ECU may make it better value than a dedicated ignition only one. As with something like an MS, the only bits 'wasted' would be the injector drivers and a few other cheap bits, as so much is the same for ignition only. And it seems you already have an MS lying around.

EDIS and MJ are likely the easiest to install, though.

If cost is an issue and you like building things and playing, I'd also look at Speeduino.
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Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by GDCobra »

DaveEFI wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:00 am
EDIS is said to be one of the most reliable systems around.

Disadvantages. You can't set its rev limit. You can't adjust the dwell, so may be stuck with EDIS coils for best results. It is a bit long in the tooth.

No reason not to use any after market engine ECU in an ignition only mode. That would also give the choice of using smart coils with built in igniters and sequential ignition too - if you choose. The greater production runs of a full ECU may make it better value than a dedicated ignition only one. As with something like an MS, the only bits 'wasted' would be the injector drivers and a few other cheap bits, as so much is the same for ignition only.

EDIS and MJ are likely the easiest to install, though.

If cost is an issue and you like building things and playing, I'd also look at Speeduino.
Thanks for the feedback Dave.
interesting information on the EDIS disadvantages, I thought I'd seen with MJ that it was possible to have both soft and hard rev' limit, need to check back on that although I don't think the distributor based sytem has that either so I'd be no worse of than no.
No adjustment for dwell is probably more of an issue. Maybe that's why I'm told that it may/may-not work. I've no absolute resistance to going with EDIS coils but it gives me more work to do finding a way to mount and must admit I like the OEM look of the GEMS pack.
And as I already have the GEMS pack (and a spare) it seems only right to use them.

I do like building and playing (hence building the car) but just don't have an abundance of time these days so would much prefer to buy a kit of parts which I can plug together and get up and running.
I don't want another ECU taking up space in my draw to kee the MS company.

Obviously I could persever with the MS which I already have but as I said previousl every time I'd get some time to tinker I ended up needing it to update software/firmware on either my computer or the MS unit leaving little left to actually make progress. Also I could just never get to a level of understanding where I had the confidence that I was doing the right thing hence shelving the project.
Now I just want to get rid of the dizzy as I hate things which rely on springs, diaphragms and weights, that's like going back to the stone age for me.

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Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by DaveEFI »

GDCobra wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:09 pm
[snip]

On the fueling side of things I'm quite happy with the Hotwire system, I did have a play with Megasquirt some time ago and still have that unit gathering dust in my office draw, if just seemed too much bother in the end. Every time I tried to make progress with it there had been a software or firmware update, then the programming software changes and I just lost interest.
What do you see as the advantagtes of changing the EFi system?
That sounds like a long time ago when there was parallel software from B&G and Extra.

Things have changed now, and Extra the one being well supported and developed. And the tuning software (Tuner Studio) one of the best around.

Which MS do you have? The green PCB MS1 (PCB marked V2.2) probably not suitable without lots of add on bits. But the blue V3 PCB is still current, and can take MS1,2 or 3 processors. The MS1 chip is obsolete now, but a plug in MS2 processor would cost you about £150. And would be very suitable to drive smart coils, like the LS1. (I'm not sure what MS1 can do - before my time)
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Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by GDCobra »

GDCobra wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:09 pm
[snip]

On the fueling side of things I'm quite happy with the Hotwire system, I did have a play with Megasquirt some time ago and still have that unit gathering dust in my office draw, if just seemed too much bother in the end. Every time I tried to make progress with it there had been a software or firmware update, then the programming software changes and I just lost interest.
What do you see as the advantagtes of changing the EFi system?
DaveEFI wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:17 am
That sounds like a long time ago when there was parallel software from B&G and Extra.

Things have changed now, and Extra the one being well supported and developed. And the tuning software (Tuner Studio) one of the best around.
I think I kicked off that project in around 2007 (where have all them years gone), I think the final straw was when I tried to use the old tuning software which I'd put some consideralbe time into becoming familiare with and it has changed to Tuna Studio.

DaveEFI wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:17 am

Which MS do you have? The green PCB MS1 (PCB marked V2.2) probably not suitable without lots of add on bits. But the blue V3 PCB is still current, and can take MS1,2 or 3 processors. The MS1 chip is obsolete now, but a plug in MS2 processor would cost you about £150. And would be very suitable to drive smart coils, like the LS1. (I'm not sure what MS1 can do - before my time)
It's an MS2 with (I believe V3 board) I have no idea what processor (I think MS2) and this is all part of the problem, unless you are conversant with a whole load of numbers let alone the settings and the hardware it just becomes completely bewildering.
Don't get me wrong I'd love to get well into this, that's one reason why I went MS in the first place (also wanted to get into the internal code and play there) but just could not get to a decent starting point. Sometimes I thought there was not enough information available sometime there seemed to be to much.
I did ask a couple of questions on the forum but got the impression that wasn't really welcome as I didn't know enough about it - Which would kind of defeat the object - so I ended up quite disillusioned with the whole thing.

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Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by DaveEFI »

Think the explanation is you were caught in the 'war' between B&G software and Extra. Which was long since resolved with Extra the winner. And if you were looking at instructions etc for both at the same time, you really would get confused.
You could still use B&Q code and MegaTune - but would be loosing out on lots of lovely features we now expect.
Easy to identify an MS1 or 2. MS1 has a single chip processor, which plugs in the socket for it. MS2 has a daughter board - a PCB with lots on it - which plugs into the same socket.

But even an MS1 is capable of driving 4 coils in wasted spark mode with the addition of 4 ignitors.

If you've not looked at MS for ages, go to https://www.msextra.com/manuals/ where you'll find all you need to know.
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Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by garrycol »

GDCobra wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:34 am
It's an MS2 with (I believe V3 board) I have no idea what processor (I think MS2) and this is all part of the problem, unless you are conversant with a whole load of numbers let alone the settings and the hardware it just becomes completely bewildering.
Don't get me wrong I'd love to get well into this, that's one reason why I went MS in the first place (also wanted to get into the internal code and play there) but just could not get to a decent starting point. Sometimes I thought there was not enough information available sometime there seemed to be to much.
I did ask a couple of questions on the forum but got the impression that wasn't really welcome as I didn't know enough about it - Which would kind of defeat the object - so I ended up quite disillusioned with the whole thing.
My experiences with MS and the MS community are exactly as you you have found. I have built the MS3 but it is going in the trash as I will never get it to work. I am going to switch to an off the shelf ECU that has local support which can do all MS3 can do and more without the crap instructions.

The MJ I have is just so I can drive on carbs until I put the truck in to get the Adaptronic ECU installed - then the Edis and MJ will be sold off.

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Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by DaveEFI »

If you can't get a self built MS3 to work, send it to me and I'll check it out free. I'm more a hardware than software type. And unless the processor is knackered, they are usually pretty cheap to fix.

If it is software related, I recently build an MS2 into a Lucas 4CU case for a mate in the SD1 club who lives in CA - and it seems they won't allow anything looking different for their 'MOT'. And he has zero MS skills. He's used a remote tuner from the UK to tune it for him. Which seems to have gone well - as he reports it running better than new.
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Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by GDCobra »

DaveEFI wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:46 pm
If you can't get a self built MS3 to work, send it to me and I'll check it out free. I'm more a hardware than software type. And unless the processor is knackered, they are usually pretty cheap to fix.

If it is software related, I recently build an MS2 into a Lucas 4CU case for a mate in the SD1 club who lives in CA - and it seems they won't allow anything looking different for their 'MOT'. And he has zero MS skills. He's used a remote tuner from the UK to tune it for him. Which seems to have gone well - as he reports it running better than new.
Thanks for the offere Dave but I don't think the MS has a problem, more that I just couldn't make progress with it, was all working OK last time I worked with it and that was only 7 or 8 years ago! Been stuck in a draw since then. If/when I get some time I may have another look into it but my plan is to sort out the sparks with a stand alone unit now (I want this sorted over winter). don't think I'll use the MS on this car so probably sell it when I get a round-tuit, the Hotwire system does a decent job and it's now possible to get into the box on them too.

I just checked over lunch time and mine is an MS2 with V3.0 printed on the board.
If I did progress with it I'd probably also build into a 14CUX case, I have a few spares so could probably sacrifice one. This would minimise wiring requirements. I think you can get by with simply changing fuel temp sensor for IAT & maybe some other minimal changes.

SD1 running better than new? That's hard to believe!

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Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by DaveEFI »

The SD1 in question is a NAS type with the first version of the flapper injection, and a bit strangled for emission control. But my UK EFI SD1 has a lot more low speed grunt with MS than with the flapper. (No experience of the hotwire, but I'd hope it is better than the flapper.)
It *really* ain't worth the effort building an MS into a Lucas case. Since the wiring loom will need additions for the different ignition, etc. By all means get a second loom if you wish to be able to go back to standard, and modify that. Hacking off the Lucas connector and replacing it with the MS one is hardly rocket science.

Just for info, I started out with zero knowledge of MS some 13 years ago. Got a kit, and assembled the MS2 myself- which helped me learn how it does things. Made a new loom out of a spare one and tested it thoroughly on the bench. Fitted that and the MS and had the car running quite well (fuel only) on the same day. Starting with the base tune in MS. Fitted EDIS a few years later. I've found the MS community very helpful, via the MS forum. No experience of UK MS dealers, etc, though.
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Re: Distributorless ignition using GEMS coils and Hotwire system

Post by GDCobra »

DaveEFI wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:54 pm
The SD1 in question is a NAS type with the first version of the flapper injection, and a bit strangled for emission control. But my UK EFI SD1 has a lot more low speed grunt with MS than with the flapper. (No experience of the hotwire, but I'd hope it is better than the flapper.)
I'd hope the Hotwire is better than flapper, it's an evolution from that system but things moved on very quickly in the time between them, if I understand correctly,flapper is analogue while hotwire is digital that's why I don't really have a problem keeping the system I have, I'm not sure why MS or other aftermarket system would give me an advantage so could be a lot of pain no gain. What do you think the main advantages would be?

Anyway I was being a bit flippant with my remark about the SD1, hope I didn't cause anyone any offence, we all love the car we choose to have, I just couldn't get the (made up) Top Gear image of that SD1 with the doors falling off out of my head.


DaveEFI wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:54 pm
It *really* ain't worth the effort building an MS into a Lucas case. Since the wiring loom will need additions for the different ignition, etc. By all means get a second loom if you wish to be able to go back to standard, and modify that. Hacking off the Lucas connector and replacing it with the MS one is hardly rocket science.
My reason for thinking of building into a 14CUX case was:
Better connector, that 37 pin D connector looks like someting from a stone age PC
Simple connection to the EFi loom
Ignition connections could be added to a separate spur and would not involve too many additional cores

We'll see what happens if I ever get on to it!

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