Axtive coils

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DaveEFI
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Axtive coils

Post by DaveEFI »

I'm thinking of changing from EDIS to sequential using 'active' coils (ones which only require a low current signal from the ECU to trigger them) when I get my new engine ready this winter. Since I'm also changing to an MS3X and sequential injection.

What are the best value coils that are also easy to use with the RV8?

Can anyone convince me that it would be money well spent over EDIS on a standard road going RV8?


Dave
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garrycol
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Post by garrycol »

Hi Dave - I cannot convince you of anything as I am initially heading the EDIS route as I know it works - had my 4.6 running. Likewise and initially going batch fuel.

However once I am happy that I know MS and the engine is running on both LPG and petrol I will change over to injected LPG, single fire ignition and sequential.

I will see how you go with the coils - individual coils like on Chev V8s will take up a bit of room - maybe Nige at Megasquirt for V8s (though he is closed but still on the forums) or Matt for DIYAutoTune can advise.

Does your engine have a camshaft sensor for the sequential injection?

Sorry not able to help but I am following with interest.

I think the only thing EDIS has going against it is that it is old tech - but it does run an engine great where all round performance is required - for sure to ring every last horsepower out it will be better to go a more modern route but it does seem to go OK.

Garry

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Post by DaveEFI »

I've no complaints with EDIS. But the consensus on MS forums is it's better to do wasted spark using MS drivers rather than an EDIS module, as that gives more/better control over the spark. Things like a user variable rev-limiter - although I don't need that, being an auto.
But most also say sequential is better. Snag is in the US LS coils can be picked up cheaply and easily.
COP would be nice - but not sure how heat from the exhaust would be coped with.
My engine had a dizzy - so made a cut down version for the oil pump drive, and included a cam sensor.
Dave
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garrycol
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Post by garrycol »

Looks like everyone is still using EDIS.

stevieturbo
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Post by stevieturbo »

It seems you're trying to fix something...that clearly isnt broken.

And COP aint happening on any Rover engine ( or similar platform ) in any sensible way

CNP would be an option though like the LS coils. But really...why ? If your current setup works you really arent going to gain anything from changing.

The only benefit I could see for you here...is CNP can be neater as it gets rid of big long HT leads everywhere. But I cant see you gaining anything performance wise.
The coils are very compact and can be mounted quite neatly too.
9.85 @ 144.75mph
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0

garrycol
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Post by garrycol »

COP CNP - meaning?

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ged
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Post by ged »

garrycol wrote:COP CNP - meaning?
Coil On Plug, Coil Near Plug.

DaveEFI
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Post by DaveEFI »

stevieturbo wrote:It seems you're trying to fix something...that clearly isnt broken.

And COP aint happening on any Rover engine ( or similar platform ) in any sensible way

CNP would be an option though like the LS coils. But really...why ? If your current setup works you really arent going to gain anything from changing.

The only benefit I could see for you here...is CNP can be neater as it gets rid of big long HT leads everywhere. But I cant see you gaining anything performance wise.
The coils are very compact and can be mounted quite neatly too.
More or less my thinking too. But the MS gurus are adamant using MS to generate the spark (rather than the EDIS module) is a better way. But individual coils even better still. Although this could be a general comment rather than RV8 specific, for engines which rev rather higher.

I've had zero problems with EDIS, so would be interested to hear comments from anyone who has changed from it to CNP.
Dave
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stevieturbo
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Post by stevieturbo »

DaveEFI wrote:
stevieturbo wrote:It seems you're trying to fix something...that clearly isnt broken.

And COP aint happening on any Rover engine ( or similar platform ) in any sensible way

CNP would be an option though like the LS coils. But really...why ? If your current setup works you really arent going to gain anything from changing.

The only benefit I could see for you here...is CNP can be neater as it gets rid of big long HT leads everywhere. But I cant see you gaining anything performance wise.
The coils are very compact and can be mounted quite neatly too.
More or less my thinking too. But the MS gurus are adamant using MS to generate the spark (rather than the EDIS module) is a better way. But individual coils even better still. Although this could be a general comment rather than RV8 specific, for engines which rev rather higher.

I've had zero problems with EDIS, so would be interested to hear comments from anyone who has changed from it to CNP.
Unless MS/EDIS has some sort of a control issue, I really dont see how there will be benefits.

It's not like there will be massive swings of timing, insane rpm's used, or even fast rpm transients etc...it's a Rover V8, not an F1 engine, or indeed even say a very high revving 4cyl.

By all accounts it's a fairly lazy RV8 and the MS/EDIS should be operating far far far faster than any of the mechanical parts of the engine ever will.
And I cant imagine it needing any super high powered ignition system either....as the EDIS is still probably more powerful than most older dizzy setups anyway.

IMO from a financial point of view, the only real reason you might want to spend the money, is if moving to 8 coils can tidy up the engine bay, improve the visuals of the engine bay, remove unsightly long HT lead runs etc.

But I would question anyone who says there will be any real world performance benefit over what you have. Neither for power, or economy.

There's no doubt a coil per cylinder and full sequential are better technically, but whether that translates to anything better on the road and in your pocket is a whole other debate.
9.85 @ 144.75mph
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0

garrycol
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Post by garrycol »

Dave - I assume we are talking about your Rover SDI - are you racing it?

In reality the full on MS3X CNP and sequential injection might deliver an extra 1% in power but for every day use doesn't mean much - for sure in a race car where 1/100th of a sec might be important.

I must admit for my truck if I had my time again I would not have gone MS at all - a good quality MSD distributor, high power coil and a modfied 4CUIX ECU would be the way I would have gone. Yes I might have got an extra 1% but really not worth the hassle of MS.

When I built my 4.6 I left the carbs on it to run the camshaft in and EDIS in default mode provided the spark - I drove the truck around and it ran great so unless something is telling you that EDIS is not doing the job I would stay with it.

Like you I was going to change later and do away with EDIS but I am changing away from that. It works - is cheap.

However, like you, I am still interested in what experiences others have had in changing over.

Garry

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Post by DaveEFI »

There are several reasons.
1 I build and install my own MS including all the wiring, so it's not going to cost me as much as having it, or some of it, done by a pro.

2 The MS gurus say the tach signal from EDIS to MS (PIP) has nothing like the same resolution as direct from a 36-1 sensor. Which they say does make a difference with fully sequential injection.

3 I'm about to fit a larger engine and will need new injectors. So I'd also like to change the inlet manifold to a later type - basically for better plumbing of the cooling system (heater) and fuel rail. And a better fast idle system. And I've built the MS3X anyway.

4 I'd never go back to a dissy. Even with a very expensive Mallory, the rotor arm and cap gave problems. And it simply can't provide as accurate a timing signal as a crank sensor.

I've near zero complaints with MS2 and EDIS. It has been 100% reliable for the 8 or so years I've been using it - and runs far far better than the old flapper ever did.
Dave
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stevieturbo
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Post by stevieturbo »

DaveEFI wrote:There are several reasons.
1 I build and install my own MS including all the wiring, so it's not going to cost me as much as having it, or some of it, done by a pro.

2 The MS gurus say the tach signal from EDIS to MS (PIP) has nothing like the same resolution as direct from a 36-1 sensor. Which they say does make a difference with fully sequential injection.

3 I'm about to fit a larger engine and will need new injectors. So I'd also like to change the inlet manifold to a later type - basically for better plumbing of the cooling system (heater) and fuel rail. And a better fast idle system. And I've built the MS3X anyway.

4 I'd never go back to a dissy. Even with a very expensive Mallory, the rotor arm and cap gave problems. And it simply can't provide as accurate a timing signal as a crank sensor.

I've near zero complaints with MS2 and EDIS. It has been 100% reliable for the 8 or so years I've been using it - and runs far far better than the old flapper ever did.
The coils are still not free though....that said they arent overly expensive either if you just buy some "takeoffs" from the US.
£200 should get you the coils and brackets/wiring etc. I wouldnt bother buying them seperately, much much less hassle to buy complete, even if you dont intend to use all the parts, and ensure to get OEM coils, there a lot of chinese crap out there !

I'd assumed you were already using a 36-1 type trigger ? Didnt realise you were having troubles in that area ?

Does your ecu not use a crank trigger...which in turn then tells EDIS what to do ? Your comment almost reads as if EDIS is telling the ecu when to trigger rather than the other way around ?

For proper sequential, you would also need a cam/phase sensor of some sort. Not usually difficult to achieve. If not doing proper sequential, I wouldnt bother, I'd just stay batch fire.

Obviously if you're making a lot of other changes, and want to tidy things up that's a different matter. Certainly go ahead and make the change.

But if it was just a change from the coil packs to CNP only...it'd make a little less sense ( but then lets face it, how much car modifying makes sense anyway lol )
9.85 @ 144.75mph
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0

DaveEFI
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Post by DaveEFI »

I already have pretty well all the bits needed. Including a modified dizzy for the oil pump drive and cam position sensor.

EDIS uses a 36-1 rigger wheel and VR sensor, so I'll simply use that with MS.

It was really my question - if CNP was going to cost a fortune, I'd not bother. If it can be done for a reasonable cost, I'll give it a try. But each time I look for suitable coils (Ebay, etc) they seem to be very expensive. So did wonder if there were suitable ones I might pick up easily in the UK from a scrappie.

I was also hoping someone may have already done it and have pic of where they fitted them and how the engine looks too.
Dave
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Rover SD1 VDP EFI
MegaSquirt2 V3
EDIS8
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DaveEFI
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Post by DaveEFI »

garrycol wrote:Dave - I assume we are talking about your Rover SDI - are you racing it?

In reality the full on MS3X CNP and sequential injection might deliver an extra 1% in power but for every day use doesn't mean much - for sure in a race car where 1/100th of a sec might be important.

I must admit for my truck if I had my time again I would not have gone MS at all - a good quality MSD distributor, high power coil and a modfied 4CUIX ECU would be the way I would have gone. Yes I might have got an extra 1% but really not worth the hassle of MS.

When I built my 4.6 I left the carbs on it to run the camshaft in and EDIS in default mode provided the spark - I drove the truck around and it ran great so unless something is telling you that EDIS is not doing the job I would stay with it.

Like you I was going to change later and do away with EDIS but I am changing away from that. It works - is cheap.

However, like you, I am still interested in what experiences others have had in changing over.

Garry
Garry, if you had a lot of hassle with MS, either you or your supplier etc wasn't doing something right. Mine was up and running reasonably well on the first day I fitted it - but I had made an entire new engine loom to make swapping from the flapper easy. And tuning is much easier with the latest software than years ago.

EDIS will produce a decent spark standalone. That's its limp home mode. But fixed ignition timing isn't going to give the best performance or economy.
Dave
London SW
Rover SD1 VDP EFI
MegaSquirt2 V3
EDIS8
Tech Edge 2Y

stevieturbo
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Post by stevieturbo »

DaveEFI wrote:I already have pretty well all the bits needed. Including a modified dizzy for the oil pump drive and cam position sensor.

EDIS uses a 36-1 rigger wheel and VR sensor, so I'll simply use that with MS.

It was really my question - if CNP was going to cost a fortune, I'd not bother. If it can be done for a reasonable cost, I'll give it a try. But each time I look for suitable coils (Ebay, etc) they seem to be very expensive. So did wonder if there were suitable ones I might pick up easily in the UK from a scrappie.

I was also hoping someone may have already done it and have pic of where they fitted them and how the engine looks too.
Most UK/Euro and even Jap cars tend to use COP, pencil style or other coils more relevant to an inline multivalve engine.
I cant really think of anything off the top of my head that use actual individual coils and also short HT leads.

Even some that are close, are still aimed specifically at a 16v type of head so far from ideal for anything our V8's might like.

the likes of the LS coils, of which there are various types, eg these

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LS-Coils-Chevy- ... Xe&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2010-2015-Camar ... uI&vxp=mtr

Are still going to cost around £200 landed in the UK. You might find a bargain somewhere but in general they'll end up around there.
9.85 @ 144.75mph
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0

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