Distributorless ignition and Rover 14CUX EFi

General Chat About Electrics, And Ignition Systems.

Moderator: phpBB2 - Administrators

stevieturbo
Forum Contributor
Forum Contributor
Posts: 3722
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:22 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Distributorless ignition and Rover 14CUX EFi

Post by stevieturbo »

DaveEFI wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 6:38 pm


Can I ask which vehicle you've converted from dizzy/single coil to multiple coil where the OEM tach works from the after market ECU directly?
If specifically only from dizzy ( Which I stopped using regardless 20 years ago ), I've used a couple of types of Ford clocks and what I believe were some SD1 clocks ( clocks were not installed in the original vehicle though )

But I've fitted aftermarket ecu's of many kind to dozens of cars and never had an issue.

I've used the OEM clocks in my own car until around 10 years ago when I changed, but that change was only as the new rollcage bar interfered with them so changed to some clocks from a motorbike as they were pretty thin...which also worked fine.


9.85 @ 144.75mph
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0

Geordie Jim
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri May 21, 2021 6:07 pm
Location: Stoke on Trent

Re: Distributorless ignition and Rover 14CUX EFi

Post by Geordie Jim »

GDCobra, on the rover 14cux system there is a resistor ( 6K7 I think ) for the signal wire,white/black into the 14cux. I am going to connect the Nodiz brown wire to this, can't try it yet, waiting for hoses and plug leads. tried it on a scope,looks OK.
The rev counter is a different matter. On the P6 the rev counter was run from the feed to the coil, on a points system. Whet I fitter the EFI and an SD! dizzy, I changed the internals of the rev counter. Got to figure out what to do with the rev counter now.
Jim.

GDCobra
Getting There
Getting There
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:21 am
Location: North West

Re: Distributorless ignition and Rover 14CUX EFi

Post by GDCobra »

Geordie Jim wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 8:57 pm
GDCobra, on the rover 14cux system there is a resistor ( 6K7 I think ) for the signal wire,white/black into the 14cux. I am going to connect the Nodiz brown wire to this, can't try it yet, waiting for hoses and plug leads. tried it on a scope,looks OK.
The rev counter is a different matter. On the P6 the rev counter was run from the feed to the coil, on a points system. Whet I fitter the EFI and an SD! dizzy, I changed the internals of the rev counter. Got to figure out what to do with the rev counter now.
Jim.
Hi Jim, good to here you're moving on with this.
Sounds like the wire colours are not conssitent or have changed since I got my unit late last year.
When you say "the NODIZ brown wire" I'm assuming that is the one connected to pin 2 "Tachometer Output (for 12v tachometers)"?
On mine this is a blue wire.

When you say you "tried it on a scope,looks OK" I assume you mean you had the engine turning (still driven by the distributor) and you monitored the output?
If so I'm assuming this was a 12v 50% duty cycle form but what was the frequency and what engine RPM?

For instance if your engine was on idle of aound 800 RPM i'd expect the frequency to be around 53Hz if I did the math's correctly (800 RPM = 13.33 RPS x 4pulse/rev' = 53.33 or 19mS/cycle) can you confirm if that's what you saw?

When you changed your tachometer to run with the EFi and SD1 dizzy what did you use the tachometer input?

One other thing to watch out for is the the coil firing order. I originally took my firing order from one of teh ME videos from You Tube, this indicated the coil firing order as ACBD but I found that it is actually ADBC (C & D transposed) on my unit at least, so I'd advise creating your loom temporarily first and proving this out before making up all your connectors permanently (unless easy to re-wire).

Another thing I struggled with is the Base Offset for the crank trigger, you have to start from 180° and then subtract the degrees before TDC that your missing tooth is set at. The manual was not clear on this to me.
To clarify, on my engine the missing tooth was passing the sensor at 60° before TDC, by trial and error I ended up with a figure of 119°, worked out that this was 180-60 (nominally), I confirmed this with ME.

DaveEFI
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 4421
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:27 pm
Location: SW London, UK

Re: Distributorless ignition and Rover 14CUX EFi

Post by DaveEFI »

It's best to confirm your timing is correct using a timing light. Note some 'smart' timing lights get confused by wasted spark. A basic one - or one with a wasted spark setting - will be OK.
Dave
London SW
Rover SD1 VDP EFI
MegaSquirt2 V3
EDIS8
Tech Edge 2Y

GDCobra
Getting There
Getting There
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:21 am
Location: North West

Re: Distributorless ignition and Rover 14CUX EFi

Post by GDCobra »

DaveEFI wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 8:55 am
It's best to confirm your timing is correct using a timing light. Note some 'smart' timing lights get confused by wasted spark. A basic one - or one with a wasted spark setting - will be OK.
Agreed, the simpler the better. Which is my outlook on most things.

The NODIZ has a mode where it will run with the timing set at 0° (regardless of RPM or load), the idea being you crank the engine when in this mode with timing light attached you can tweak the base offset figure until your TDC mark aligns with the timing pointer (which of course you check first at they have a reputation for being out of position).
Unfortunately this didn't work for me. My (inductive type) timing light was not triggering in this mode, no idea why, but does work when the engine is running. This coupled with the fact I was not aware of the Base Offset working from a +180° position (and the fact my C & D channels were transposed) made initial start-up "difficult". Eventually I discarded using the 0° mode and simply created a map with all cells filled to 10° and tried starting the engine, while it wouldn't start I kept tweaking the Base Offset figure by 10° first one way then the other until the eingine fired, at that point my timing light chimed in and I could fine-tune the Base Offset.

Although my timing was now correct the engine ran poorly, I think the technical term is "Like a bag of sh**e" judging by other people I've spoken to, this is when I realised that the C & D channels were transposed (during a break from the garage I found a comment regarding this in the manual to be fair) switched those inputs on my coil pack and the car started and ran quite well with my 10° BTDC mark aligned rock solid with my timing pointer.

GDCobra
Getting There
Getting There
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:21 am
Location: North West

Re: Distributorless ignition and Rover 14CUX EFi

Post by GDCobra »

Geordie Jim wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 8:57 pm
GDCobra, on the rover 14cux system there is a resistor ( 6K7 I think ) for the signal wire,white/black into the 14cux. I am going to connect the Nodiz brown wire to this, can't try it yet, waiting for hoses and plug leads. tried it on a scope,looks OK.
The rev counter is a different matter. On the P6 the rev counter was run from the feed to the coil, on a points system. Whet I fitter the EFI and an SD! dizzy, I changed the internals of the rev counter. Got to figure out what to do with the rev counter now.
Jim.
Hi Jim

I tried sending you a PM with my contact details in case you wanted to discuss anything directly but I'm not sure the message sent, it appears in my outbox but not sent items. If you do want to discuss directly please PM me your phone or e-mail details and I'll respond.

DaveEFI
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 4421
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:27 pm
Location: SW London, UK

Re: Distributorless ignition and Rover 14CUX EFi

Post by DaveEFI »

Out of interest, is there not a Nodiz forum? MegaSquirt has one, and plenty helpful experts on there. Including the chap who actually writes the software, and is from the UK. The RV8 is a prime candidate for replacing the dizzy, so I'd guess you'd not be the first to use Nodiz for this.

As regards the coils, I installed them first on my engine, where I wanted them, then selected each coil to give the best plug lead run to a pair of cylinders. Then made the low voltage loom so ABC&D went to the correct one.
Dave
London SW
Rover SD1 VDP EFI
MegaSquirt2 V3
EDIS8
Tech Edge 2Y

GDCobra
Getting There
Getting There
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:21 am
Location: North West

Re: Distributorless ignition and Rover 14CUX EFi

Post by GDCobra »

DaveEFI wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 11:53 am
Out of interest, is there not a Nodiz forum? MegaSquirt has one, and plenty helpful experts on there. Including the chap who actually writes the software, and is from the UK. The RV8 is a prime candidate for replacing the dizzy, so I'd guess you'd not be the first to use Nodiz for this.
If there is a NODIZ forum I'm yet to find it, plenty of posts on other forums but these are mainly for 4 cylinder engines and possibly interfacing with fuelling systems which don't require the output which the 14CUX does. I don't see why there would be any issues there, in these cases the TACHO signal would be "correct".
The only instances of this unit being used on an RV8 are either using carb's or injection other than 14CUX. I have not found any specific instance of anyone using the same combination as I am.


DaveEFI wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 11:53 am
As regards the coils, I installed them first on my engine, where I wanted them, then selected each coil to give the best plug lead run to a pair of cylinders. Then made the low voltage loom so ABC&D went to the correct one.

That's fair enough but you still need to know what order the ignition unit fires in.
I initially used the GEMS coils in their standard configuration with a standard (cheapy) set of leads. Once I had the firing order correct I swaped a couple of coils over so that I could use my existing Magnecor leads, sounds similar to what you did.

GDCobra
Getting There
Getting There
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:21 am
Location: North West

Re: Distributorless ignition and Rover 14CUX EFi

Post by GDCobra »

Status update.

Well I've come to the end of the line with the NODIZ, I just can't get it to work. I believe I know what the problem is but I can't be 100% sure so don't really want to discuss it here.

The bottom line is the car runs well on the single coil distributor setup so the issue has got to be somewhere between the ignition box and the coils.

Problem is I still believe in the concept of crank triggered, multiple coil mappable ignition which removes inacuracies introduced via the drive train between crank and distributor, gives the coils more resting time (and we all like that don't we?) and allows exact spark timing as well as little tweaks like lifting the timing at low RPM for an element of anti-stall. So what do I do now?

Well I could look at buying in an alternative system but as I've got a Megasquirt 2 box sitting in my filing cabinet draw I've decided to (try and) resurect that. Apart from my mental health (it left me scarred last time I used it) I've nothing to lose.
I have to admit this was mentioned way back at the end of last year and I rejected the idea based on my previous experience so I have to offer my humblest apologies to DaveEFi for not taking his advice in the first place.

Must admit, based on previous experience where I seemed to spend more time updating firmware and tuning software I was a bit reluctant to dive back in but thnking "Faint heart never f**ked fair maiden" (as my grandma used to say) I decided to strap on a pair and have a look.
Bearing in mind I haven't touched the MS2 for many years and I know the tuning software has changed since then I was expecting another round of updating and half expecting the latest firmware not to be compatible with my new-but-old MS2 I wasn't expecting much success but after just over an hour in the garage I've got the unit talking to my PC, deployed TunerStudio, updated the firmware and started work on a start-up map so I'm now actually quite optimistic. Shouldn't take too long to sort out the cabling (Only Power, Ground and VR sensor to connect) and I should be ready to have another go.

Fingers crossed.

DaveEFI
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 4421
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:27 pm
Location: SW London, UK

Re: Distributorless ignition and Rover 14CUX EFi

Post by DaveEFI »

I'd expect the tach signal needed to feed the 14CU to be identical from both Nodiz and MS, assuming they are set to the same.

However, with MS, there is plenty help out there.

I have a test rig for MS and can look at all the outputs etc on the bench using a scope. And am happy to do this free - just the cost of the return postage.

Does your MS already have the high current drivers fitted to drive the Gems coils?
Dave
London SW
Rover SD1 VDP EFI
MegaSquirt2 V3
EDIS8
Tech Edge 2Y

GDCobra
Getting There
Getting There
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:21 am
Location: North West

Re: Distributorless ignition and Rover 14CUX EFi

Post by GDCobra »

DaveEFI wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:12 am
I'd expect the tach signal needed to feed the 14CU to be identical from both Nodiz and MS, assuming they are set to the same.

However, with MS, there is plenty help out there.

I have a test rig for MS and can look at all the outputs etc on the bench using a scope. And am happy to do this free - just the cost of the return postage.

Does your MS already have the high current drivers fitted to drive the Gems coils?
Hi Dave

Thanks for your reply. I probably should start another thread on this as the topic has now changed but let's see how we go.

The MS was spec'd to be used with the GEMS coils and has 4 VB912 coil driver transistors mounted to the top of the case.

My thinking is this should be reletively simple to do in terms of the hardware, at least to get going, as I mentioned should only need power/ground and VR sensor wiring (2 wires plus shield) as the MAP is built in. I hope I'm not over-simplifying things but I like to start off simple and only add complexity as necessary and I can't see why anythign else should be necessary for ignition only. I'm happy to be corrected on that though!
Obviously there will then be the coil wiring which is on a separate plug.

The MS setup is possibly not so straightforward however, I had a look over TunerStudio last night and there are obviously a myriad of settings, most of which will not be important to me as related to fuel. the difficult bit is picking out what is and what isn't required.

I did actually get to the point of running the engine with this system when I first got it (let's say it was over 10 years ago!) but no further, assuming all the settings have remained in effect since then they should be correct but there's always the possibility that firmware updates may have corrupted some of these settings (the ignition map doesn't look correct for instance), I may be better asking questions on the MS forum for this.

I'm hoping to get to the point of some testing at the weekend and if that works out OK then I should be fine in terms of the hardware but may need some help fine tuning some of the settings.

Do you run your igntion coils directly Dave or via EDIS?

DaveEFI
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 4421
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:27 pm
Location: SW London, UK

Re: Distributorless ignition and Rover 14CUX EFi

Post by DaveEFI »

I'm running EDIS, which was installed quite some time ago. The limitations with EDIS don't really matter with a standard RV8, running batch injection. (IMHO) But if I were doing it now, I'd use smart wasted spark coils. It's likely just me, but I don't like the idea of all those flyback pulses being inside MS. However, my next move (if I ever get round to it) will be MS3 doing sequential injection and ignition using LS1 coils. Have most of the bits needed.
Dave
London SW
Rover SD1 VDP EFI
MegaSquirt2 V3
EDIS8
Tech Edge 2Y

GDCobra
Getting There
Getting There
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:21 am
Location: North West

Re: Distributorless ignition and Rover 14CUX EFi

Post by GDCobra »

DaveEFI wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:05 pm
I'm running EDIS, which was installed quite some time ago. The limitations with EDIS don't really matter with a standard RV8, running batch injection. (IMHO) But if I were doing it now, I'd use smart wasted spark coils. It's likely just me, but I don't like the idea of all those flyback pulses being inside MS. However, my next move (if I ever get round to it) will be MS3 doing sequential injection and ignition using LS1 coils. Have most of the bits needed.
Hi Dave
Thanks for getting back. I know where you're coming from with the flyback pulses but I am where I am and I've got what I've got and this is what I'll be working with. If necessary it should be possible to move the transistors out of the box and put them in a separate enclosure close to the GEMS coils, hopefully that would keep the flyback EMI under control. But it may be a non-problem, I won't know until I get it up and running.

My inital plan is to wire up the CPS-VR and power/ground wires and plug in the pipe to plenum vacuum, then check I'm getting a good CPS signal when cranking and when the engine is running (still using the distributor), likewise the MAP signal (I already tested this and the value looks good).
I also need to work out which ignition out put is associate with which channel and from what I read last night there is a test capability in TS for this.
Must admit I must have known what this was previously but can't remember how I knew.
I can then move on to going live with the MS.
To start with I'm going to trigger the EFi (and probably the tachometer) from the coil flyback using the diodes as I have been so far as I know this works, but I will also look at using the tachometer output first to drive the tachometer and, if that works I'll then try providing the EFi signal this way.

DaveEFI
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 4421
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:27 pm
Location: SW London, UK

Re: Distributorless ignition and Rover 14CUX EFi

Post by DaveEFI »

I've had a few MS in for repair with the extra ignition drivers mounted inside - usually bolted to the top cover - and it obviously works. I dislike the idea just because they are more of a PITA to work on afterwards. :D
Dave
London SW
Rover SD1 VDP EFI
MegaSquirt2 V3
EDIS8
Tech Edge 2Y

Geordie Jim
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri May 21, 2021 6:07 pm
Location: Stoke on Trent

Re: Distributorless ignition and Rover 14CUX EFi

Post by Geordie Jim »

Hi all,
Not been on here a while, personal reasons, and not much time to spend on the rover p6, but:
got the nodiz running using 4 diodes, and then started to get uneven running and cutting out, especially at higher revs. B*gg*r. At the same time the nodiz blue and green led's were "dropping out". I checked the gap on the crank sensor, and the trigger wheel had damaged it. The gap varied from 12 thou to 50 thou. ( 1mm = 40 thou)
ME manual says the runout should be zero. Impossible to achieve. I put the crank pulley in a lathe and trued it up. Back on the engine it is within 5 thou. the result is much better starting, smother running and healthy pickup. Haven't tried to run the rev counter yet.

Jim.

Post Reply

Return to “Electrical & Ignition Area”