10 spline clutch

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Devonrod
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10 spline clutch

Post by Devonrod »

In case my T5 Cossie box is not worth repairing, (see rebuild thread) I am looking at whats needed if I buy a new aftermarket box, I will have to alter the gearbox mount, the prop yoke, and get a 10 spline clutch, I see that some 10 spine plates for Land Rover are available (link below) my question is do they fit the T5 box ? RPI have one in there T5 kit but it does not look the same friction surface.

http://www.dingocroft.co.uk/acatalog/Cl ... 2and3.html



mike-b
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Post by mike-b »

Hi, Having just changed my T5 Cossie box for the T5 (251) mustang box I needed the 10-spline plate. While only using a 3.9 standard engine I only need a standard clutch and size.
The number on the plate is CP AP 2346-70 and looks exactly the same, from APC Coventry.
While changing to the `tang box I also used the Tilton 6000 series throwout bearing system as a SD1 clutch system would need "Working" just to get it to operate as the front bearing retainer is wider on the 251 box at 36.44 mm in diameter max. the cossie is 34.87 max.
Mike B Drives a 1984 Mk2 Granada ghia V8.

Devonrod
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Post by Devonrod »

Fantastic, thanks for that Mike, I pulled the Cossie box today and its fooked, the main shaft has gone where the needle rollers from the first motion shaft are.
I have already machined my SD1 clutch carrier to fit the Cossie box, and I also have a TVR one that's a lot bigger, I will have a measure up, I am using a TVR bell housing, I am going to have to find out if the aftermarket T5 251 box fits that ?

mike-b
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Post by mike-b »

Hi, The T5 cossie box 1352-184 and the T5 Mustang box (251) have a few differences.
The Cossie front bearing retainer is 118 mm in diameter the Mustang 124 mm so your bell would need altering to suit but the `tang T5 would fit if machined out.
The `tang T5 drawing gives a minimum of 124.645 mm a max of 124.684 mm.
The spigot bush end (251 box) is min. 16.962 max. 16.988 I bought a Sd1 spigot bush and took it to a machine shop so it could be drilled out on a lathe to 17mm. I wanted the lathe used to make sure the hole was central, price £2 job done properly.
The mustang box was fitted in the `tang at an angle so the part that would fit onto your `box cross member becomes a little akward. the left side (UK nearside) is 15mm higher than the other side when connected to the bell and closer to the bell too.
The measurements given here are from the Tremec drawings.
Should you require more info regarding the cossie & mustang differences you can have them - no problem.
Mike B Drives a 1984 Mk2 Granada ghia V8.

Devonrod
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Post by Devonrod »

Cheers, I have been trying to sort things out, AP don't list that clutch plate so ive Emailed them, I will have to measure my bellhousing hole for the bearing carrier fit, I had to machine the Cossie one to fit, I cant find any tech info on the net ( PDF OR DRAWING ) regarding the size of the T5 bearing retainer like you have, I'm amazed the box was tilted I thought that was only the GM T5s ?, I also need to make sure I can get a 28 spline Yoke for my propshaft that takes a 1310 UJ. I also need to check the gearbox bolthole spacing will fit the TVR bellhousing.

Is the gearbox straight (upright) in the car, or is the whole box tilted ? when bolted to the bellhousing.

Here is the end of my Cossie mainshaft !

Image

stevieturbo
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Post by stevieturbo »

yokes shouldnt be a problem

https://www.summitracing.com/int/search ... cation=int

That bearing surface is.
9.85 @ 144.75mph
202mph standing mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgWRCDtiTQ0

mike-b
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Post by mike-b »

Hi, You need a point sorting.
The 251 box sits level when attached to a bell that fits the rover V8.

What happened to that cossie box? Have you gat the service manual for the T5 if not download a copy from www.tremec.com for free.

Looking at your cosworth T5 you will find the two holes that allowed it to be secured to your gearbox cross member are level. On the 251 box they are not, the nearside hole is 15mm higher than the offside one when the box is attached to the bell housing even though the box would be level the left (nearside) securing hole used at the cross member will be 15mm higher than the right hand (offside) one. ( happy days!! )

The bolt holes that secure the 251 box to the bell are exactly the same as the cossie T5.
Both boxes were meant to fit Ford cars - sierra / Mustang hence the same - well they are this time anyway thankfully.
I have a TVR bell used originally for the Cossie T5, all I did is have the box front bearing retainer hole of 118mm cut out to 124.6mm. A machine shop will do it on a lathe for you and is a lot cheaper than buying another bell housing. All Tremec made T5 (251) boxes
have 124 mm bearing retainer size.
With regards to the 28-spline yoke I bought mine from Paul at www.v8tuner.co.uk
and it`s a hefty lump but designed for the Mustang box. Remember the yoke also stops the ATF pouring out the back of your gearbox so it needs to be spot on size wise.

If you are thinking of using a clutch operation system similar to the Sd1 or your old cosworth parts you will need to do some research as they dont` fit in standard form, also if you have your bell cut out to 124.6mm you loose the pivot pin threaded hole.
The whole job is not so straight forward as it seems at first, nevertheless it can be done.
Measuring from the front face of the 251 box to the holes used to secure the box to the cross member is 380 mm, that is to the centre of the holes. By the way those two holes are now 140 mm apart ( 70 mm to centre line of box not 55 mm as is cossie box.and further forward towards the bell.
I know - you get one problem sorted and up pops another bugger - but thats what its all about ....... so i`m told!!
Mike B Drives a 1984 Mk2 Granada ghia V8.

Devonrod
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Post by Devonrod »

Thank you for taking the time to help Mike, and Stevie, I will have to get measuring, my garage is ten miles away from my house towards central London so I cant just pop out there !

I turned down my Cossie front bearing carrier to fit the TVR bell housing, so I will do the same on the Mustang one rather than machine the bell housing.

We think the Cossie gearbox got wrecked when we started up the new engine to run the cam in, it was spinning at 2000 revs for 20 minutes, the gear box was unused for a few years and we think the needle bearing was too dry and the ATF didn't get to it in time.

Mike, what did you do for the speedo drive, it looks like the new box just has a blanking plug. does the Cossie one fit ?

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Post by mike-b »

Hi, Ref your speedo cable, I see no reason why your cossie one would not fit as both boxes are basically the same inside, unless the output gearing for the cable is different.
I never used a speedo cable on either T5, my system is electronic and "see`s" two 4mm bolt heads tapped into the rear flange of the prop.

I made a small plate and sealed it all off with some silicon sealant and had no problems with either T5. I keep away from cables of that nature when possible, you always need two, one in use the other spare. The accelerator cable, adjustable tickover ( was choke ) and a handbrake is all I use.

You mention turning down your front bearing carrier so it fits your bell - I would check if it is possible to take it down to 118 mm without cutting away or into the bolt holes.
Why would a manufacturer use a 124 mm one if he could use a 118 mm one instead?
Remember ..... Assumption is the mother of all ..........Having stated the above you may be correct, but check it.
Mike B Drives a 1984 Mk2 Granada ghia V8.

DEVONMAN
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Post by DEVONMAN »

The bearing retainer has a bolt PCD of 4" (101.6mm).
We have previously machined a retainer plate down to TVR retainer and belhousing size (118.9 mm) without a problem.

I suspect the manufacturers fit retainers to suit the bellhousing hole in previous models in the series for consistancy.

Some retainer are alloy and some steel so I don't think the loss of a perimeter rim is crucial to the strength. Some loss of sealer surface yes but TVR don't seem to have a problem.
1950 A40 Devon Hotrod with 5.0 twin turbo RV8.
EDIS8 wasted spark, Holley Injection.
Been as far as the Moon and back in 57 years of driving. Same Car, 5 engine upgrades !!!


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Devonrod
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Post by Devonrod »

The reason TVR used the smaller diameter bearing retainer, I guess, was so that they could use the std Rover pivot point position and clutch arm, the pivot point is exactly the same place in both planes as the Rover, the TVR bell housing is 6mm shorter than the Rover, but the TVR clutch bearing carrier is also 6mm shorter where it connects.
I measured up today at my garage and although its going to be more work it looks like it will all fit OK.
I now have to get, a new gearbox, clutch plate, speedo drive, (Cossie one no good), make up a new gearbox mount, when ive sussed what rubber mount to use and purchased that, new slip yoke, turn down bearing retainer, make new gear lever ! make new part of trans tunnel for gear lever. I think that's all but I must have forgot something !

Whats worse is I have just finished all the above in order to get the Cossie box to fit that's no good now ! talk about deja vu !

BTW what rubber mount did you use Mike ?

DEVONMAN
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Post by DEVONMAN »

Don't forget the spigot bush will need a ream.
1950 A40 Devon Hotrod with 5.0 twin turbo RV8.
EDIS8 wasted spark, Holley Injection.
Been as far as the Moon and back in 57 years of driving. Same Car, 5 engine upgrades !!!


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Post by DEVONMAN »

The bearing retainer that will come with the 251 gearbox will/may have a different release bearing sleeve diameter. I think standard Ford is 1.43" dia. It may be easier to fit the cossie bearing retainer you have already machined, as this already works with your clutch mechanism. Just need to shim/check the main shaft end clearance in the new box. Or you could buy a TVR retainer and use a TVR release bearing carrier. (Which I believe you already have).
1950 A40 Devon Hotrod with 5.0 twin turbo RV8.
EDIS8 wasted spark, Holley Injection.
Been as far as the Moon and back in 57 years of driving. Same Car, 5 engine upgrades !!!


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mike-b
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Post by mike-b »

Hi, The rubber mounts I used wouldn`t be a lot of use to you, different car so different measurement to your box cross member. they are wide though at 40mm.
The 30mm one uses a 10mm thread, the 15mm only 8mm due to it being so thin.
Even fitted like that I had to space my cross member away from the car by 15mm.
TBH it could be improved - and probably needs to be - however as its a new build I keep a very close eye and all seems well after 500 miles.
Mike B Drives a 1984 Mk2 Granada ghia V8.

Devonrod
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Post by Devonrod »

Mike, just got that clutch plate off ebay for £50 all in !
Elsewhere they wanted £130+ £ 9.50 postage + VAT !

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