V8 onto ford type 9 gearbox and into a kit car

Post any info regarding parts for conversion and swaps.
and any posts regarding swaps help.

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richardm6994
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V8 onto ford type 9 gearbox and into a kit car

Post by richardm6994 »

Hi everyone.

I'm just getting into the world of V8's and have started with a 3.9 rover.

To save me retyping my build diary onto this forum, please click the link....

http://www.rhocar.org/index.php?showtopic=35307&hl=


I would love to know your thoughts / ideas / forseeable problems as this is the place to go for V8 knowledge!!

kindest regards


richard



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Post by kiwicar »

Hi
as a general rule I would not put a type 9 behing a rover, although the rover produces not a lot of power even the 3.5 in P6 tune produces a goodly chunk of torque. . . a 3.9 in the spec you have given should be producing about 205 BHP and a proportionally large chunk of torque and to be honnest the Type 9 was designed with the kent engine in mind, and that was never a torque monster!
Having said all that you have done it, and by the looks of things you have done a very done a very neat job of it too so how to move forward.
I would recommend a numerically high rear end ratio and fairly narrow tyres, although it is a light car the box will suffer most from shock loading back through the transmission so this will help things by reducing the tendency to load up the box, don't use a limited slip diff, this way it will either accelerate straight away or spin the wheels, but atleast that way it will not load up the gear box shafts for a prolonged period. Next I would try to avoid flooring it in high gears at low revs, if you want to go faster change down then let her rip. Change the box oil ofter, say every 2 to 3000 miles and use a top grade of oil recommended for the 9. Use first to get you moving but only use 1/4 throttle, change up to second fairly early and accelerate in that then select a gear to cruise in, do not rush the gear box, this puts a lot of load into the case and cooks the syncros both of which will be under a lot of stress with the rover. Finally look at what upgrades are available, straight cut gears will help cryogenicly treated motion shafts will help all the usual stuff, unfortunatly none of this helps the case, so basically don't rush your changes.
Best regards
Mike
poppet valves rule!

richardm6994
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Post by richardm6994 »

thank you for your reply and kind words.

I really had to think long and hard about the type 9 gearbox option.
My car is only 611kg and there have been 5 or 6 kit cars run with this set up without any problems.

An upgrade box rated at 240bhp from a company called firstmotion are around £700 so if this one blows then I'm off to them.

Having spoken to the engineer at firstmotion, he explained that type 9's are no good when it comes to "burst" of power....for example a zetec turbo (which is also a popular kit car engine).

with both engines running 200bhp, the type 9 would be much happier on the v8 than the turbo.


I have also been warned to take it wasy in 3rd as this is the gear which tends to go if any are going to burst!


I'm running a 3.38 diff ration with 17" wheels. This makes good use of the torque the engine has to offer.

I'm not putting an lsd or super sticky tyres on as I would rather the wheels spin up instead of breaking the box.


all-in-all having come from a 2ltr pinto engine....I am well happy!!!

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Post by richardm6994 »

one other thing that's got me thinking....you mentioned 205bhp?

I was at pete burgess rolling road in Alfreton with a friends westfield. That managed 199bhp at the wheels with a rover 3.5 v8 on edelbrock 500 carb.
I was hoping for a bit more than 205bhp with my set up but at the end of the day it is whatever it gets.

rolling road is going to be booked after I've got 1k miles on the engine.

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Post by DaveEFI »

richardm6994 wrote:one other thing that's got me thinking....you mentioned 205bhp?

I was at pete burgess rolling road in Alfreton with a friends westfield. That managed 199bhp at the wheels with a rover 3.5 v8 on edelbrock 500 carb.
I was hoping for a bit more than 205bhp with my set up but at the end of the day it is whatever it gets.

rolling road is going to be booked after I've got 1k miles on the engine.
The standard Vitesse EFI 3.5 is 190 BHP at the flywheel. Just changing to a carb ain't going to improve on that. You'd need to spend quite a bit of money to get it up to 200 at the wheels.
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kiwicar
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Post by kiwicar »

Hi
As Dave says the rover delivers 190 to 200 bhp in not far off stock spec, capacity has very little to do with outright power on the rover as they are very head limited. The heads just do not flow enough to make much use of any extra capacity. So a 3.5 and a 3.9 will make pretty much the same power depending on cam exhaust and carb/ injection it is just the 3.9 makes a bit more torque lower down, the 3.5 will make its' 200 bhp at slightly higher revs. The bigger engines, 4.2, 4,5 and 4.6 can carry a bit more cam duration and still pull away cleanly so you can "up cam" them a bit and meke a little more power, but you are not talking a lot!
One comment I would make is that the 4.2 to 4.3 litre capacity engines do seem to hit a sweet spot on capacity and if you can get enough CR and cam duration they perform slightly better than the other capacities but you are still looking at 220 to 225 is on stage 3 heads and everything else being right. It takes big money to make much more than about 215 bhp out of a rover. But 200 to 205 is cheap and simple.
Best regards
Mike
poppet valves rule!

richardm6994
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Post by richardm6994 »

the guy who rebuilt the engine did say how crap the heads flow as standard.

this is the actuall build up of the engine and the work he did before I took over the completed engine and fitted it into my car....

http://www.rhocar.org/index.php?showtop ... oject&st=0

kiwicar
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Post by kiwicar »

Hi
the flow figures for a stage 1 ish set of heads is around 155 to 160 cu ft/min, the best realistic figures I have seen for fully ported big valve rover heads on 3.7" bore (rover casting at .5" lift and 28" of water depression) is about 175 to 178 cu ft/min, but to get this there is a big trade off on flow below .3" of lift, you just cannot get that type of flow figures to make real power much over 215 bhp (at the wheels) without loads of cam timing and compression. I have seen an RR operator "add" 45 bhp with the strike of a key, to me rolling roads are to be trusted as much as you trust the operator, they are a very good way of comparing two engine combinations, tracking modifications made on the day or sorting out the fueling, to me they are not a way of measuring absolute BHP.
Best regards
Mike
poppet valves rule!

richardm6994
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Post by richardm6994 »

thanks for your time going into this with me!

I agree that rolling roads are good for tuning an engine on, but accurate bhp figures arn't always given (2 rolling roads are never the same anyway....I learnt that from my pinto days!)

The engine bhp will be what ever it will be! In any case, 200bhp in a 611kg is always going to put a smile on my face!!


I'm glad to have got my build diary on this forum and looked at by the people who know v8's as I'm just starting out and learning a lot as I go!!

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Post by nokia_aid »

my car has a rover v8 and a type 9, had no issues so far

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Post by Coops »

what state of tune is the v8?
as the type 9 is not the strongest box going, bit like the rover lt77 box :(
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Post by richardpope50 »

Whilst not able to read your link as it appears I'm not registered, I'm surprised you did not at least go for an LT77 or preferably a T5 (I use this).

LT77s are cheap and the norm.

I agree with all that's been said above and just hope it survives.

With a V8 and a Sierra diff a 3.38 is a bit low geared IMHO and you will probably not use first. I've a 3.15 and I still find first a bit low. Just use one of the many calculators to work out the correct ratio you want.
Richard.
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Post by nokia_aid »

its totally standard 3.5 running on su carbs, someone else did the conversion,


i am picking up a lt77 tomorrow though to keep as a spare

richardm6994
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Post by richardm6994 »

This link should work to see the build diary...

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthr ... tid=177481

And the first start up.....


http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthr ... tid=182685

Loads of mileage and track days done this summer and all is well. 3.38 diff seems ok but agreed it could be better

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Post by richardm6994 »

And the results are in from my rolling road session at pete burgess.....
First run of the morning;
258.7hp (225.0 at wheels) and 286.2 ft-lbs (260.2 at wheels)

Final run after Pete had worked his magic;
269.0hp at 4900rpm (233.9 at wheels)
303.4 ft-lbs at 3800rpm (275.8 at wheels)

Scary stuff having the car strapped onto the rollers screaming at 6000rpm and 110mph!!!!

I've had a great morning. The fuelling was spot on and needed no adjustment....all the adjustment was done on the megajolt map to give a better torque curve (first run had very flat torque between 2.5k and 4k).

Pete didn't say a great deal during the morning until the end of the session when he was very complimentary about the engine and car.....which is nice to hear from someone who clearly knows his way around a v8!!

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